When was the last time you felt anxious? Did just reading that question bring up some uncomfortable feelings? For many of us, anxiety is more than just a buzzword. This week, we are talking with Dr. Lauren Cook, a clinical psychologist and the author of GENERATION ANXIETY (available now!), about anxiety and mental health. Dr. Lauren’s expertise lies in helping people understand what anxiety is, where it lives in our bodies, and how we can manage it. 

• Book – GENERATION ANXIETY
  
  
• The perfect time to become a parent (spoiler: there isn’t one)
  
  
• Career pivots
  
  
• Feeling anxious vs. anxiety disorder
  
  
• The Four Ds: Distressed, Deviance, Dysfunction, Danger
  
  
• Confirmation bias
  
  
• Normalizing anxiety without minimizing it
  
  
• The biology behind anxiety
  
  
• Alex Honnold, Free Climber
  
  
• Brain-gut connection
  
  
• Inflammation
  
  
• Bloodwork to identify deficiencies
  
  
• Accessibility to healthcare
  
  
• Base for lab work
  
  
• Raising kids with healthy brains and bodies
  
  
• Empowering our children to take action
  
  
• The negative side of “positive thinking”
  
  
• Changing behavior
  
  
• The power of community
  
  
• Having real conversations with friends
  
  
• Reframing the “what ifs”
  
  
• Discomfort is okay
  
  
• Setting boundaries
  
  
• Ghosting creates anxiety
  
  
• Kristen van Ogtrop in Episode 15 of the Mom &… Podcast
  
  
• Brene Brown on the opposite of play (Missy butchered the quote and only loosely explained the concept in the show, so go listen to Brene!)
  

Susanne

• Vintage Framing Studio
  
  
• THE COVENANT OF WATER by Abraham Verghese
  
  
• Seattle summer > Austin summer (duh)
  

Lauren

• The Bear on Hulu
  
  
• THE POWER OF FUN by Catherine Price
  
  
• Learning about the importance of creating family traditions
  

Missy

• THERE’S NO COMING BACK FROM THIS by Ann Garvin
  
  
• After the Bite on Max
  
  
• Learning Photoshop
  

Dr. Lauren Cook is a licensed Clinical Psychologist, company consultant, author, and speaker. With a doctorate in Clinical Psychology and her Master’s in Marriage and Family Therapy, Dr. Lauren appears frequently in the media to provide commentary while also working with companies as well as individual adults, couples, families, and teens to help reduce anxiety and improve personal and professional outcomes. She integrates evidence-based tools from a systems lens and she speaks internationally, both in-person and virtually. Dr. Lauren owns a private practice, Heartship Psychological Services, serving all clients residing in California. Dr. Lauren’s latest book, GENERATION ANXIETY, hits the shelves in September 2023.

• TikTok
  
  
• Instagram
  
  
• Website
  
  
• Heartship Psychological Services
  
  
• Book: GENERATION ANXIETY
  

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Musical Notes

Our delightfully happy intro and outro theme music, “We Will Get Through This” is performed by Young Presidents, and used under license from Shutterstock.

Transcript is auto-generated by a robot. Apologies in advance for misspellings or errors.

[00:00:00] Susanne: Welcome to the MomAnne dot dot dot podcast, the podcast that helps you make your ellipses count. You know, all the little dot dot dots that come after I’m a mom and, and I’m Susanne Kerns a mom and dot dot dot writer, LGBTQ and sex ed advocate, and this week I am soaking in every minute of the last week with our daughter living under our roof.

We drive off in a week and.

[00:00:29] Missy: I just can’t even believe it. By the time this Episode is on, she’ll be like settled in.

[00:00:34] Susanne: I know. I know. And I think this may be a really smart thing to do. Uh, we’re going to be driving with her across the entire country for three days, which after that, we may just have had all enough of each other that we’re ready to say goodbye. We’ll see. Or it’s just so amazing that it makes it even harder.

So we will see. But she’ll be back for ACL. Like, yeah, it’s

[00:00:58] Missy: Oh, soon.

[00:00:59] Susanne: Yeah, she’ll be back soon, so that’s

good.

[00:01:02] Lauren: where’s she headed?

[00:01:03] Susanne: is heading to Rochester, Rochester Institute of Technology, so pretty far from Texas.

[00:01:10] Lauren: Oh, that’s amazing. That’s a big milestone moment.

[00:01:13] Susanne: Yes, we’re excited.

[00:01:15] Missy: Well, it’s hard to follow that, but I’m Missy Stevens, mom, and dot, dot, dot, writer, foster child advocate, and this week I’m just in post vacation recovery and am a hot mess. But we’re getting it all together. Our guest this week is Dr. Lauren Cooke. Lauren is a licensed clinical psychologist, company consultant, author, and speaker with a doctorate in clinical psychology and her master’s in marriage and family therapy.

Dr. Lauren appears frequently in the media to provide commentary while also working with companies as well as individual adults, couples, families, and teens to help reduce anxiety and improve personal and professional outcomes. Dr. Lauren owns a private practice, HeartShip Psychological Services, serving all clients residing in California.

You can connect with Dr. Lauren through TikTok, Instagram, where we met her, her brain health book club, and through her podcast, The Boardroom Brain. And of course, stay tuned for her latest book, Generation Anxiety. It’s back there behind Suzanne set to hit the shelves in September, 2023, which I think this will be airing in September, 2023.

[00:02:20] Susanne: Yes, but we got a sneak peek, yay!

[00:02:23] Lauren: Well, thank you. I feel like this is gonna be a fun conversation. I like the two of you. This is fun.

[00:02:29] Missy: Thank

[00:02:29] Susanne: We like you too!

[00:02:30] Missy: Thank you. We’re so looking forward to it and we’re going to jump right in. We got a picture of what you’re doing in your bio, but we’d love if we could get like a Dr. Lauren one on one to give a snapshot of your career in life. And especially if you had any pivots, like maybe motherhood.

[00:02:47] Lauren: Yeah,

[00:02:47] Missy: Yeah.

[00:02:48] Lauren: like 10 weeks ago, .

[00:02:50] Missy: Oh my gosh.

[00:02:51] Susanne: Oh my goodness!

[00:02:53] Lauren: I know I have a little two month old in the other room and I’m like low key sweating, hoping we. It’s recording without some big tears, but yeah, so I’m a very new mom and, uh, author, psychologist, speaker, and navigating all of those changes happening right now. But, but honestly, it’s been really good. And I was just posting about that the other day of like, I feel like everybody tells you all the, like, really hard parts about being a parent.

And it wasn’t until I got pregnant that people started saying, like, how amazing it was. And it, and, you know, now that I’m in it, I’m like, yeah, this is pretty cool. Like, this is pretty amazing. I’m glad I did this. And regrets. Um,

[00:03:37] Susanne: I have a friend who’s due soon, so I’m going to play that clip for her over and over. I’m glad I did this. I’m glad I did this.

[00:03:45] Lauren: it’ll be

[00:03:45] Missy: Yeah.

[00:03:46] Lauren: So, and I write about that in Generation Anxiety, like, There’s no perfect time to do a lot of things, especially becoming a parent. Uh, and so I’m glad I took the plunge, even if I had a book coming out four months later, like that’s, you know, that’s just the

[00:04:01] Missy: That’s some timing.

[00:04:03] Lauren: isn’t it?

[00:04:03] Missy: You had all your babies at once.

[00:04:05] Lauren: Yes, I had twins this year, like human baby, book baby, you know,

[00:04:10] Susanne: Oh my gosh. And now, was that a straight line for you then? It sounds like your career has been your path, you know, since college. Is that true? Or have there been any pivots in your career as well?

[00:04:22] Lauren: well, I’d say my pivot was more in college. You know, I went in as a biz econ major at UCLA and quickly saw the calculus courses and said, Okay, that’s maybe not for me. And then I got into journalism, actually, like I spent some time at NBC News and E News and thought maybe I wanted to be a journalist.

but, you know, there was a part of me that was really wanting to have that like one on one experience with people and also not travel quite so much at that time. I mean, new journalists, you got to be ready to move wherever they’re going to send you.

[00:04:56] Missy: Right.

[00:04:57] Lauren: So, you know, I thought, Okay, I feel like psychology really marries all those components that I want to have that you.

There’s still that storytelling and that narrative piece in psychology for sure, but, you know, really helping people build on their future and how they want to grow in their lives. And so that’s what really pulled me into psychology. and I love it. It’s been a really, really great path. I, I haven’t met many psychologists that say they regret this career and I’m included in that.

[00:05:24] Susanne: And now, okay, so we want to jump to your new book, which, baby number two, Generation Anxiety, which, I mean, I think every generation has their own anxiety, and we’re going to get to that in a little bit. But before we I think you addressed very early on in the book something that probably a lot of our listeners may be feeling is it feels like sometimes that everybody has anxiety now.

It’s just, it used to be so taboo and no one would ever talk about it, but now it’s like hashtag anxiety for pretty much everything that’s going on in anybody’s life. So how do people differentiate if they are just Feeling anxious about a particular thing, or if they truly have an anxiety disorder, or they are just a human that is living in 2023.

Like how, how can you tell the difference between these things?

[00:06:20] Lauren: Yeah. No, I’m so glad you bring that up because I was just having a conversation about this the other day with someone that it, the term almost is getting overused. You know, everything is anxiety. Is it really though, you know, and we talk about what we call the four D’s. And I think this is a really helpful way to differentiate.

you feeling stressed, worried, which is pretty normal from time to time, or is it something like a generalized anxiety disorder, social anxiety, OCD, something like that. So four D’s, here we go.

[00:06:49] Susanne: Mm

[00:06:50] Lauren: One, if you yourself are feeling distressed by your experience, if you’re worrying about how much you’re worrying, right, we call that meta worrying, there’s one for you.

If you’re noticing a deviance, and what I mean by that is if we’re looking at a bell shaped curve, a deviance from the norm, so a norm in your own life, for example, where you’re like, ooh, this isn’t how I normally operate day to day, I’m noticing like a real increased reaction here, or deviance in terms of when you’re looking at your peers and people around you.

Ooh, I’m not noticing that everybody else is having a panic attack when we’re out to dinner. For example,

[00:07:23] Susanne: hmm.

[00:07:24] Missy: Yeah.

[00:07:24] Lauren: dysfunction. And I think this one’s really, really key to note here. Are you not able to keep up with the obligations in your life? Are you not able to achieve and work towards the goals that you want to do if there’s dysfunction happening?

And the last we’ve got to normalize this is if there’s any sense of danger, if you yourself are feeling unsafe, if you’re waking up saying. I don’t want to be here. I don’t want to wake up tomorrow. Or if you’re having thoughts of hurting someone else, those four D’s components of them are present, that’s when we may be meeting more criteria.

But I think that’s something that is really important for us to talk about because yeah, everybody says, Oh, I’m anxious. But do we really understand what that means

[00:08:04] Missy: It is such a buzzword now that I, I don’t know anyone who hasn’t said they are anxious and especially in the last, I don’t know, five years or so. Um, and particularly in the last three. And, You know, I think, I think it’s so great to give that framework to walk through like what is this really doing to your life,

[00:08:24] Lauren: Yeah. And it’s, it’s hard, right? Because I mean, I’m on TikTok myself. I love a good psychology TikTok. It’s hard because we see these 30 second soundbites, right? Of like, here’s

[00:08:35] Missy: right?

[00:08:36] Lauren: of anxiety. And it’s like confirmation bias. Well, I have that. I don’t always sleep through the night.

So I must have anxiety,

[00:08:44] Missy: Hmm.

[00:08:45] Lauren: And on the one hand, it’s so great. We’re normalizing it. But we also don’t want to minimize it either, because for folks living with anxiety, it can be really debilitating.

[00:08:55] Missy: Yeah.

[00:08:56] Lauren: something I write in the book that, you know, it’s not just some casual thing. It can really cause a lot of distress for someone who’s experiencing it.

And so, it’s great. We’re normalizing it, but we also don’t want to minimize it at the same time.

[00:09:10] Missy: No. And you talk a lot about the key to starting to get a grip on all of this is really understanding it and understanding the biology behind it, which I found really, really fascinating. And I’m wondering if you can take a few minutes to talk to our listeners about that because I was eyeopening to look at it from a truly like, this is a biological thing, not all just our world around us.

[00:09:33] Lauren: No, 100%. And there’s two kind of key components of this. So one is that amygdala part of the brain, right? It’s almond shaped, very small. It’s how so, so deep in our brain at the real kind of instinctual level. know, folks who experience anxiety tend to have an overactive amygdala.

[00:09:50] Missy: Hmm.

[00:09:51] Lauren: there are a lot of different things in the environment that may cause some stress for some, but if you’re experiencing anxiety, it’s going to be level 10 for you.

It’s going to be much more intense. On the flip side, you have people who have underactive amygdalas, right? They might be the person like Alex Honnold who free climbs, you know, Yosemite, right?

[00:10:09] Susanne: love that example. That is, that spoke to me in a deep way.

[00:10:13] Missy: I have a couple people in my life who I think maybe don’t have an amygdala, like they just aren’t worried about anything. It’s all mine. I’m like, how?

[00:10:23] Lauren: Total chillers, right? I know. Yeah. And that really can be on a neurological level. You know, the other side of this, and this is something I get so excited about, because we often talk about anxiety from such a heady space. Anxiety is so physical, like it is so housed in our entire body. And we’re really starting to have cool conversations about this gut brain access connection.

of our serotonin is housed in our gut. So it’s not surprising when you hear 60% of folks with IBS also have an anxiety disorder. It’s very closely connected. So it’s interesting as we’re starting to talk about even the foods we eat, the things we drink, how that affects our, body chemistry and in turn our experience of anxiety.

I know for myself, like, healing my gut, that actually healed my panic attacks, more than cognitive work ever did. And obviously, I love some good cognitive work, I’m a therapist, but we gotta look at the whole body when we’re looking at healing anxiety.

[00:11:24] Susanne: Ooh, okay, let’s, let’s tangent there because I find that fascinating and I, I think just like anxiety has been kind of a buzzword, I think gut has also become a buzzword and also a whole industry for people selling all kinds of products that are supposedly going to fix your gut and make it perfect and whatever.

So what are some actual everyday little changes that we can work into our life or at least be more conscious about when we are making decisions about what to put in our body and that could impact our gut and therefore our anxiety.

[00:11:58] Lauren: Yeah, well, I always say start with getting your blood work done. There are so many folks that have not gotten their blood work done, spend thousands of dollars on therapy, and lo and behold, someone had, you know, a B12 insufficiency, for example,

[00:12:13] Susanne: Mm hmm. Mm

[00:12:14] Lauren: times with people who are vegan, for example.

[00:12:17] Missy: Right.

[00:12:17] Lauren: they’ll come in and they’ll say, I have all these ADHD symptoms, brain fog, all these things. Let’s look at B12. So, start with your base, your baseline blood work. That’s really important, especially looking at vitamin D. There’s a huge percentage of people in this country that are vitamin D deficient.

Uh huh.

[00:12:34] Susanne: hmm.

[00:12:35] Lauren: that really can contribute to symptoms of anxiety and depression. So we have to look at all these things, other things that really make a big difference. And all this one is so hard for me because I am such a sugar addict. Like that’s the thing I really have to work

[00:12:50] Susanne: Yes.

[00:12:51] Lauren: It’s so inflammatory in the gut.

[00:12:53] Missy: Right.

[00:12:54] Lauren: look at how that impacts anxiety. And in turn, Alcohol as well. You know, it’s interesting. There’s really a movement lately, you know, sober curious and things like that.

[00:13:04] Missy: Yeah.

[00:13:05] Lauren: back on their drinking and in turn seeing that their anxiety often really does reduce in that process.

so those are some things cut back on the sugar cut back on the alcohol. Stay hydrated, right? Hydration is huge for the brain. We could go on and on about these things. And I have a whole list in the book. But, um, yeah, that’d be a good starting place, I’d say.

[00:13:25] Missy: We’ve talked about this some before in the podcast, but we’ve both cut way back on alcohol. And during the pandemic, we, we ramped it up. We didn’t even realize we were doing it, you know, that like, Oh, well, we’re, school’s closed for two weeks. It’s kind of vacation. Let’s have a cocktail turned into the world is ending.

Let’s have a cocktail turned into this is never going away. Like it got out of control. And of course, it was also a highly. Stressful time in the world. And so anxiety was way up. And I think we’ve both noticed a huge difference in taking that down. We’re still dealing, I mean, COVID is still a thing. There are all kinds of other issues in the world, but like I’m sleeping through the night and it’s a huge, huge difference.

[00:14:09] Susanne: it’s just a cruel part of nature that the things that we think we’re doing to comfort and calm ourselves, like having a glass

[00:14:16] Missy: A cookie and a glass of wine.

[00:14:19] Susanne: to some ice cream. I mean, it’s just like so mean. Like, why would nature make us want those things when it’s so bad for us? It’s not nice.

[00:14:29] Lauren: I agree, I agree. Yeah, those, those things though, like ice cream, yeah, they do like, they trick our brain, right? Because

[00:14:36] Missy: Yes.

[00:14:37] Lauren: have ice cream, but yeah, it’s, it’s, uh, it knows exactly how to get into our brain in that way.

[00:14:43] Susanne: Yeah, my body is convinced that peanut butter puffins were a building block of my ancestral line. I don’t know.

[00:14:51] Lauren: Me and Cocoa Krispies, right

[00:14:53] Susanne: Oh, so good. So good. Okay. But no, I, I do want to echo again that point about getting your blood work done. I had an issue when I was in college. I was down for the count for about two years, which we couldn’t figure out what it was.

I. think it was when my Hashimoto’s kicked in. And so, I had an undiagnosed thyroid issue, which once got that under control, everything seemed to be a lot better. I was like, well, that was a waste of two years in bed. so that was unfortunate and no one ever thought to check. My blood.

[00:15:31] Missy: I mean, that’s

[00:15:32] Susanne: I know. I mean, how I was going to these doctors forever.

So demand the blood work. Same thing. This was not related to anxiety, but when my appendix exploded, um, I went for almost five days. for five days. I do not know how I lived. And at the point when I was going into the doctor they were like, Oh, no, you’re fine. Just go on a brat diet. It’s just stomach upset.

And no one ordered a blood test despite the fact that I’ve been having all these symptoms for a week. So just always Command the blood work and I do know that that is that is a privileged standpoint to take because not everybody has the insurance coverage to be able to do that. And I also noticed, even for those of us who are privileged to have the insurance to cover it that vitamin D test.

Was a huge extra charge. I don’t know if labs are trying to tamper down demand because people are getting it checked so frequently. But I had to have, uh, the doctor before they even drew my blood last time were like, By the way, the, the vitamin D portion of this, do you still want to do it? Because it’s going to be XYZ extra. cost on it. So just be aware of that. Um, make sure that you are aware of what your insurance covers and doesn’t cover. I mean, I felt it was valuable enough to know because it has had such an impact on my life, but, um, just be aware of that. So, we talked about the nutritional advice. Okay. Sugar and alcohol.

I can do that. We can do that, people.

[00:17:04] Missy: can’t do it.

[00:17:05] Susanne: it’s not asking too much.

[00:17:08] Missy: No,

[00:17:09] Susanne: Yes.

[00:17:10] Missy: no.

[00:17:10] Lauren: one quick thing on that, too, because I’m I’m right there with you in terms of accessibility. one company that I really like the work that they do on this is called base, and it allows you to take action to get the blood work that you want for yourself. So you do still have to pay for it, but then you don’t necessarily have to go through a doctor to get that information.

So that can be a resource to for folks because I agree. The accessibility is It’s really frustrating, and that’s something that we need to absolutely make a change with.

[00:17:41] Susanne: Oh, that’s really

[00:17:42] Missy: that information and put that in our show notes so that, because sometimes you do think like, what are my options? I don’t know what to do. Or your doctor won’t order something can be very frustrating to be asking and asking and not get it.

[00:17:55] Susanne: Yeah.

[00:17:56] Missy: Well, we want to pivot a little bit cause I really, we could do three podcasts, I think on just the gut brain connection.

I think it is fascinating, but we have more things we want to talk to you about today. And, one of the things we really found interesting in the book is we are Gen Xers and we are raising Gen Zs, but a lot of our listeners are also millennials raising Gen Alphas and, um, you know, yes, like you. And. We all have these defining moments in our generation that are impacting our anxiety.

What should we be thinking about for our Zs and Alphas that we are trying to raise with a healthy brain and body?

[00:18:32] Lauren: Yeah. So I write a lot about this in the book, this idea of empowered acceptance, because let’s be real. There are a lot of things happening right now that are really scary for our young adults and our kids. You know, I remember distinctly as a millennial. You know, when Columbine happened and that kind of set off a whole trajectory, you know, where now these things happen on a daily basis.

What’s really interesting too, when you look at these studies of what people say are defining moments in their generation, almost every generation, obviously Gen Z doesn’t have a 11th. Was a huge turning point in people’s lives of really feeling like the world is unsafe. The world is changing. I mean, that really set a precedent, especially for millennials, you know, being in elementary, middle school, high school, watching this play out on television was very much a turning point in reality.

So, you know, as we look at these things, we have to accept what is we have to talk about these situations that are happening. We can’t just put our head in the sand and say, La la

[00:19:38] Missy: Mm-hmm.

[00:19:39] Lauren: this isn’t going on, you know, even with climate change, right? We can’t just ignore that. It is in fact getting hotter, right?

We are

[00:19:46] Missy: It is

[00:19:49] Susanne: Especially in Texas.

[00:19:51] Lauren: Yeah, we

[00:19:51] Missy: Yeah,

[00:19:52] Lauren: how hot it is and we can’t just ignore these things, but on the flip side of that, we also have to be empowered in our approach. We have to take action because what we naturally see happen when people experiencing all these sad, scary events. You feel helpless and you feel hopeless, and that leads to anxiety, and over time, that leads to depression.

We don’t want people to be apathetic and say, Okay, this is just what it is. No, we have to say, Okay, I see this for what it is, and I’m going to do something about it. That’s something I get especially excited about with Gen Z. I mean, we’ll see what happens with Gen Alpha, but Gen Z, they are like, uh uh.

Like, I am not going to stand by and just watch the ship go down.

[00:20:36] Missy: Right.

[00:20:37] Susanne: Yeah.

[00:20:37] Lauren: we’re going to rebuild the Titanic as it’s sinking kind

[00:20:40] Missy: Yeah. Right,

[00:20:41] Lauren: So I have a lot of hope, you know, with Gen Z, especially Millennials. We got to get in on it, too. And Gen X. Let’s support our kids and in all of this, you know, to make sure we’re all speaking up about these things, these injustices that we see happening so that it doesn’t feel just so stuck to one generation to solve all these problems.

[00:21:01] Susanne: I know

[00:21:02] Missy: I, do always say I’m hopeful,

[00:21:03] Susanne: yeah, I know my

[00:21:05] Missy: but they’re like, it’s not just me.

[00:21:06] Susanne: fix us, fix us kids. They’re like, you’re the ones that messed it up. Oh, I like that idea about taking action though and how that can help give a little bit more feeling of. control or some autonomy over things.

[00:21:21] Lauren: Mm hmm. Yeah. We have to jump in. And, and we have to do it individually in our own lives. Like, we can’t avoid, you know, I, I talk all the time about not letting anxiety call the shots on your life. You are going to feel anxious sometimes and that’s okay, but we also have to do this collectively as a society too, because people feel so isolated and lonely right now.

And we really need community to say like, Hey, I’m not going to stand by and let these things happen. Let’s be a part of changing things for the better together.

[00:21:52] Susanne: Love

[00:21:52] Missy: a great point.

[00:21:53] Susanne: Come on. Come on, youngsters. Help us.

[00:21:56] Missy: no pressure. Save us all. Mm-hmm.

[00:21:59] Susanne: But okay, so there’s all these external factors that are happening in the environment that we can take actions toward to help improve them. but you know, they still can contribute to anxiety, but I think I don’t know, Missy and I talk about this a lot. I think the biggest number is what we do on ourselves through our own negative thoughts, um, that don’t have anything to do with what’s going on in the outside world, usually.

So how can we address like these negative thoughts that we may be having by also avoiding what I just love that you referred to as the BS of positive thinking. So maybe talk about what you mean about the BS of positive thinking and then also talk about how we can use what, what replaces that positive thinking to, um, help address those negative thoughts.

[00:22:47] Lauren: Yeah, yeah. I hate to say it, but we can’t just positively think our way out of situations, you know? Try as we might. So the brain is hard, right? I say in the book it’s a wild and free agent, and it is. Like, our brain gives us all kinds of wild, weird thoughts all the time. And a lot of people get really anxious about what does it mean that I’m thinking this?

What does this say about me?

[00:23:12] Missy: Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

[00:23:13] Lauren: is just going to do weird, funky things. And that’s the brain. That’s what it does. and most of the time, in fact, they’re negative in nature. They’re ruminative. And so the more we know that about the brain, the more we can stop thinking I’m the weird oddball.

[00:23:28] Susanne: Hmm. Yeah.

[00:23:28] Lauren: and odd, you know, that’s why I say like, I wish people could come to a therapy session and hear what people say behind closed doors, because we’d all realize, oh my gosh, we all are thinking about that time in second grade when we, you know, farted in class or. That time last week when we said that thing and we’re still thinking, what did that person think about my comment?

All these things, right? So we have to really be mindful of that. And this is where I’m a, I’m a big behaviorist, actually, you know, you have to take action in your life to show yourself. That you can live with anxiety, that you are capable. So many people have really bad imposter syndrome because they let their brain just absolutely call the shots on their life.

And the brain’s going to tell you all the time, you’re not ready, you’re not smart enough, you’re not good enough, blah, blah, blah. And you have to say to yourself, Okay, I feel anxious. I feel scared. That’s okay. I don’t need to let that stop me from asking that person out on a date or talking to my boss about asking for a pay raise.

And what’s really cool about all of this is that the more you do it, the lower those waves of anxiety are going to be. It’s going to get easier over time and you ride out those waves and see, Oh, I did get through that. The world didn’t end. I survived. And then the brain starts to buy in and say, Ooh, okay, maybe you can do this.

so that’s why I’m a behaviorist more than a positive thinker. You have to show yourself the evidence and then the brain will buy in.

[00:25:02] Missy: I love that so much, and I love what you’ve said about like if other people could hear what was going on in therapy sessions, like, I think because we are more and more isolated in the last few years have been incredibly isolating. You start to get in your head and you’re like, I am the only one.

I had a conversation the other day where a friend just was telling me about something happening in her marriage. Not devastating world ending stuff, just marriage stuff happening. But I hadn’t had a conversation like that in a while. And it made me realize that like, I had forgotten that that’s just normal stuff in a marriage.

So the last time that I had had a moment like that with my partner, I was thinking, well, that’s it. We’re probably, you know, we’ve been married all these years, but we’re probably not going to make it one day more because he’s driving me crazy. And. You have to have those conversations if you can’t get to a therapist individually, what do you recommend for people who are feeling isolated and maybe don’t have the access to a therapist or the means for a therapist?

Like, are there things to do?

[00:26:01] Lauren: Oh, yeah. Yeah. We need to be having real talk with our friends. I had a similar situation with one of my besties, Hannah, where we, we really got real with each other and we need that, you know, so much of the time we’re so just starved on small talk with each other. It amazes me. You know, sometimes I’ll go out to a meal with like on a couple state and we’ll just talk the whole time about what, what are we watching?

What are the cool restaurants in town? Okay, that’s fine. But like, we’re not really going deep and getting to know each other. My husband’s like, well, Lauren, that’s because you’re a therapist. I’m like, know. We really have to get vulnerable with each other and like

[00:26:41] Missy: Yeah.

[00:26:42] Lauren: other on a deeper level.

So I think we’re kind of starved socially in that way. And, you know, I do think not to be too cliche here, but I do think social media plays a part in that where People really just post the highlights of everything that’s going well in life. Um, or they’re posting the real, like, deep, low lights, too. And not always the ordinary mundane, you know,

[00:27:05] Missy: Right.

[00:27:06] Lauren: sometimes life is boring.

And that’s okay. I think sometimes we feel like we need these extremes. the reality is, you know, a lot of the time, a, it’s a normal, boring Tuesday. And that’s okay. That doesn’t mean your life is not amazing and wonderful at the same time.

[00:27:23] Susanne: Well, speaking of normal, boring Tuesdays, one of the things that you bring up in the book is this idea of all the what ifs and how they can keep us from trying new things. And then eventually that can turn into then regret for the things that we did not try and we wish we had tried. And I haven’t mentioned this for a while, but for a long time I was talking about There are so many things that I did not do just because I didn’t know where I was going to park when I got there.

Like that, that was one of my big hangups of what ifs of like, what if I get there and there’s no parking or what if I get there and dah, dah, dah, and the most ridiculous thing, but I feel like admitting that like hopefully will let other listeners know that, yeah, that’s just normal. Some people get hung up on really ridiculous things that make no sense.

And then, you know, you

[00:28:12] Missy: real, real worry. Real

[00:28:14] Susanne: but you can problem solve your way out of that in about five minutes. But for some reason, I managed to use it to stop from doing, or even thinking about doing some, you know, some, some things that could have been really fun. so how do then you, yeah, well, you do it a lot in the book.

For people who have not read the book, talk about reframing these what ifs. So that you can try some things that you might really love doing and also just get rid of the potential future regret of not having tried them.

[00:28:45] Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think one thing is really important to know that are capable, you know, obviously, we all have different things that can get in the way different things that can make it difficult, right? We have to acknowledge different variability levels, of course. We also have to remind ourselves, though, like, I have capabilities.

I can do different things that maybe my anxiety is telling me that I can’t do. And this part, I think, is really important. I can handle discomfort. You know,

[00:29:14] Susanne: Mm.

[00:29:15] Lauren: have gotten to a place, I think, a lot of times of like, I only want to feel comfort. And a lot

[00:29:21] Missy: Yeah.

[00:29:22] Lauren: happens in the discomfort. And we can live through the discomfort.

You know, I, I see this a lot of times in therapy too. People will experience those things that they’re afraid of. They’ll, they’ll face it either on purpose, like how I have faced my fear of throwing up in therapy actively, or the things that maybe they didn’t plan, but here it is, your partner broke up with you, and now we’re, we’re sitting in the muck of that.

[00:29:45] Missy: Right.

[00:29:45] Lauren: are often really surprised of like, oh wow, like, yeah, this sucks, but like, I’m living through it. I’m getting through it. And our brain, that anticipatory anxiety can be so hard for people sometimes and feel like I could never get through if this and that were to happen. Well, it happens. And then they’re kind of surprised of like, Oh, I’m actually functioning.

I’m getting through it, even though it is hard.

[00:30:10] Susanne: Mm hmm.

[00:30:10] Lauren: that’s important for us to remember, too, that we can sit with discomfort, and it’s often in the discomfort that sometimes really cool, good things come out of that, too.

[00:30:19] Susanne: I want to get that on a T shirt. Yeah, we’ll put that on a pillow for you, Missy. I

[00:30:23] Missy: Yes. Yep. I always want to needlepoint certain things on pillows that I will have guests that say things and I’m like, that’s my pillow this week, but

[00:30:32] Lauren: I love

[00:30:32] Missy: yeah, and like the growth happens in the uncomfortable stuff is really important to remember. I do want it tattooed on my forehead because we don’t want to be uncomfortable. I think about it with my kids, they don’t struggle with anxiety on any level that. You know, do you would think of, Oh my gosh, that’s a really anxious kid. but yeah, they just don’t want to do certain things because it feels scary.

[00:30:55] Susanne: Mm hmm. Yeah. I think mine feel the same way, and it’s because it’s been modeled for them by their mother for the past however many years. Those poor kids. Oh,

[00:31:08] Missy: I mean, Mark and I are very guilty of being like, well, we don’t know what that’s going to be like when we get there. So maybe we don’t want to spend our day doing that because it might be hard when we get there. Yeah. It might suck, but it might be the best thing ever.

[00:31:20] Lauren: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:31:21] Missy: Right.

[00:31:22] Lauren: Or it might be boring, too, but like, still an interesting story. You know, like, speaking of those extremes, too, like… It’s okay if it just is what it is, you know, but I think on the whole, it’s pretty cool to try if we can. And yeah, I felt that just this past weekend, we took a trip to Lake Arrowhead.

It’s like an hour and a half and we had, you know, our son in the backseat and he’s crying and. I don’t know. My husband’s like, we shouldn’t have done this. We shouldn’t have done this. No,

[00:31:50] Susanne: Ha, ha, ha.

[00:31:52] Lauren: I’m like, but like we’re teaching our son, hopefully a message of like a little discomfort if he cries sometimes.

That’s okay. Like, someone gave me the I saw, like, a pamphlet the other day that said, Your child should not cry longer than one minute. And I’m like, Oh man! Okay,

[00:32:10] Missy: it takes longer than one minute to get from point A to point B when you’re crying.

[00:32:14] Lauren: like, am I not supposed to drive a vehicle then for the next, like, year? So, like, we have, I mean, even at a young age, like, it’s okay, like, if we feel discomfort, it’s okay if our kids feel discomfort. That doesn’t mean we’re bad parents. You know, because our kids get a skinny, you know? That’s a great book, by the way.

so we have to, we have to embrace the discomfort, for sure.

[00:32:36] Susanne: okay. Speaking of discomfort, one of the things that causes us a lot of discomfort is saying no to people. It’s setting boundaries. And I don’t want to break any rules by like reading too many things out of the book. Let’s

see. Oh, do I have my readers here, Missy? see, because you talk a lot about how to tell if you are a people pleaser.

You know, a

[00:33:01] Missy: Am I a recovering people

[00:33:02] Susanne: have been too bad of an idea here. Okay, so you can look at the cover of the book while I read this for all of you on YouTube. Okay, so I feel like I need to say yes to every opportunity that comes my way. We do that. And what’s, what’s our little quote that, uh, uh, say no so someone else can say yes or something like that?

I always love that one. often saying yes quickly and then regretting it immediately after. Yes. having trouble confronting others when I’m upset or pretending to agree when internally I really disagree with what’s being said. Oh my gosh. I’d rather feel overwhelmed than disappoint someone.

I mean, check.

[00:33:45] Missy: That is, used to be me, that is my husband to a T.

[00:33:48] Susanne: Really?

[00:33:49] Missy: Oh my gosh, he does not want to disappoint. Well, he’ll disappoint me if he doesn’t want to disappoint. Like anyone, if he tells somebody he’s going to do something, he would rather drown than disappoint them.

[00:34:01] Susanne: Yes, I get that. And then another one that I don’t know, I think this, I’ve been trying to model this for my, my kids recently, and it’s really hard, but, um, I’m friends with people who I don’t really enjoy being around because it’s easier to go along with, than end of friendship. Uh, so yeah, that can be a big.

a big version of people pleasing. And it is something that I had been modeling badly, for my kids. Um, and it’s, it’s hard to tell them because you feel like you’re being judgy.

[00:34:33] Lauren: Mm hmm.

[00:34:35] Susanne: sometimes it’s just a case of like, uh, the chemistry isn’t there, or, you know, it’s just, we don’t have the same values.

And that doesn’t mean that their values are bad, but it just doesn’t align with mine. And that causes. you know, this emotional conflict that, you know, it’s just, I can have other friends that don’t cause that and spend time with them instead. well, for those of us who are going check, check, check, check, check, is there hope for us?

And, uh, what are some good ways to start boundary setting, especially as school is starting back up and we’re going to be getting asked to be on this committee or to sign up for this room mom or to do, do, do. Do so like, how, stop us, stop us. My, my husband used to take all the pens out of my purse before I went to the class meetings.

What’s another way that you can stop?

[00:35:22] Lauren: That is amazing.

[00:35:24] Missy: That’s pretty great.

[00:35:26] Lauren: I feel it too. I mean, this, this for me is one of the hardest pieces, this people pleasing. I think especially, you know, for those who identify as women, it is like ingrained at a young age of like, Be accommodating, you know, it even gets associated. It’s like, are you a good person or are you a bad person?

You know, these like very extremes that really like on an unconscious level, I think sink in for people So one coming back to that discomfort piece get comfortable saying no sit

[00:35:55] Susanne: Mm hmm. Yes.

[00:36:05] Lauren: yes or no to this?

Will I feel relief for saying no or will I feel excited to say yes, know, pay attention to what that data is for you and give yourself just that pause. You know, I think especially with people pleasing, we get what’s called those, you know, permeable boundaries where we take on anything and everything and then we really feel burned out and resentful in that process.

So as we’re doing that again, sit with the discomfort, give yourself that 24 hour window. Don’t immediately say yes. me think about it. Let me get back to you on that. and to your point too of what you were bringing up about, you know, friendships that maybe aren’t a good fit. Friendship breakups, honestly, I see giving people more anxiety sometimes than like a dating breakup.

Sometimes

[00:36:51] Susanne: Yes.

[00:36:53] Lauren: hard to break up and in relationships with a friend. So one thing I think is really important here is clearly Really communicate if something is not working for you. People actually much more appreciate an honest answer, even if it’s hurtful, if you just ghost on them.

Because a lot of times with people pleasing, I’m uncomfortable, so I’m just going to run away from this. And then the other person is left ruminating, well, did I do something wrong? What, what happened? It’s better to clearly communicate, you know, than to, you know, ghost on someone. And then that leads to their own anxiety as well.

[00:37:28] Susanne: Oops. Okay. I did that wrong.

[00:37:30] Missy: like, I think I have created a wake of anxiety behind me at times in my life.

[00:37:36] Susanne: Oh my

gosh.

[00:37:37] Lauren: in the water is bad, bye! Have fun with

[00:37:39] Missy: Just like, I can’t handle that anymore. I’m gone. But then I leave behind me this mess. And yeah, it’s really hard for a people pleaser to be up front and communicate and say, this is not, this is not serving either one of us anymore. Like, and that’s okay. It’s okay.

[00:37:58] Susanne: And I love the idea, sitting in the discomfort of no’s and having enthusiastic yes’s. It’s so funny because that’s one of the main rules of, well not a rule, but for like comprehensive sex ed, is to like have an enthusiastic yes. If it’s not an enthusiastic yes, it’s a no. And so I, I think that that rule should apply through everything.

And I think that’s a, Another important lesson for kids to get. It’s not just about sex ed, it’s about ed for all things in life. That, if it’s not an enthusiastic yes, then it’s a no.

[00:38:32] Missy: And The taking the time to answer. I just think that needs to become standard. Whatever it is, no one should ever demand an answer of you right away. You say I need 24 hours or a week or whatever it is to look at this, then that’s the gift you are to be given.

[00:38:48] Susanne: yeah. Just, okay.

[00:38:51] Missy: I hate that we have to move

[00:38:53] Susanne: have a really big pillow. I have so many things I need to put on this pillow, Miss C.

[00:38:57] Lauren: 100%.

[00:38:57] Missy: I really hope that everyone will get the book. And to that end, where is the best place to find the book? We’ll put all of your socials in the show notes, but is there a central location for finding the book? Where can they order it?

[00:39:09] Lauren: Yeah, so you can buy the book wherever you like to buy books, whether it’s an indie bookstore, Amazon, Target, whatever you like. If you go to drlaurencook. com, you’ll see the Generation Anxiety page there, and there’s all different things that you can do, free downloads and things like that to build off the book.

but, Yeah, I’m so excited for people to get their hands on it. September 19th is the day. And if you prefer audio, I did the audio recording of the book myself. I fought hard for that because there’s a lot of my own story of anxiety in there. So I think I was like 38 weeks pregnant when we recorded And I was like, Oh, please don’t go into labor.

[00:39:47] Susanne: Oh my gosh. The second half of the book is like just some dude.

[00:39:54] Missy: Dr. Lauren is in the hospital.

[00:39:57] Lauren: Right?

[00:39:58] Susanne: Oh my gosh, good for you though, oh my gosh, talk about being a mom and dot, dot, dot doing it all.

[00:40:08] Missy: And also, I just find, I keep getting examples of this in my life lately. So I feel like it’s one of those things the universe is bringing me, but for so long, I feel like women have been relegated to, well, Oh, you’re pregnant then, Oh. You can’t, or you’re a mom and you can’t, and I mean, that’s why we started this podcast.

You are a mom and dot, dot, dot. You can be 38 weeks pregnant and record your book and you can have your baby and then launch your book. You can do all of that.

[00:40:35] Susanne: Yes.

[00:40:36] Lauren: Missy, thank you. That’s really nice to hear. Yeah, yeah. We can do it. And it’s gonna be like messy and not perfect, but… Damn it, we’re going to do it.

[00:40:46] Susanne: Yep,

[00:40:46] Missy: do it.

[00:40:47] Susanne: we can sit in

[00:40:48] Missy: stop listening to that external stuff going, Oh, Oh no, maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe you, you have kids. Don’t do that.

[00:40:54] Susanne: Yeah, and the internal stuff that we’ve created because of the external stuff being pounded into generations of brains. So yes.

[00:41:02] Missy: Right. And again, our brain going at us with the. You can’t. That’s scary. Don’t do

[00:41:07] Susanne: hmm. Mm hmm.

[00:41:09] Missy: Mm

[00:41:10] Lauren: you can do it. You can have a career and be a mom. Like, I am a huge advocate of that because a long time in my life I didn’t believe that was true and that is absolutely not the case.

[00:41:22] Missy: hmm. Absolutely not. You go do it, moms. You can do it.

[00:41:25] Susanne: Oh, whoops, I was going to point to the book, but I put it down when I was quoting it. All right. Generation anxiety, y’all. So yeah, by time this airs. They’ll be pretty darn close to being able to get, if not already. But pre orders are fun.

[00:41:38] Missy: Pre

[00:41:38] Susanne: the gift you give, yeah, pre orders are the gift you surprise yourself with later, because you forget you ordered it, and then you get it in the mail, it’s like you get a little present, so do it now.

[00:41:47] Missy: And it’s so good for the author. Pre orders are fantastic. but it is now time to close up with look, listen, learns, and for anyone who is new here, we’re so glad you’re here. And we hope you come back and listen again.

And the look, listen, learns. Our segment we do at the end of every week, something fun. We talk about what we’re watching, reading, learning might be serious, might be ridiculous. You never know what you’re going to get. And we don’t like to put our guests in the hot seat. So Suzanne, you get to go first. What are you LL ing this week?

[00:42:15] Susanne: Let’s see. I am looking at, I have a ton of new framed artwork. I will give you the photos to put in the show notes, Missy.

[00:42:24] Missy: I saw you were going to talk about this and I need this information because I have a stack of stuff

[00:42:28] Susanne: oh my gosh, I have spent, okay, so my husband bought out, it was an Antones. It was some, I think it was Antones, and they had all these cool concert posters, like signage. We literally have a brunt sign of our booth in our kitchen, um, like exit signs, all kinds of stuff. So a bunch of this was posters that he had gotten.

Um, and. They just weren’t looking right in my 5 Ikea frames and, and, you know, especially with this Willie Nelson, one that was over the fireplace that we just. It needed a little something special to highlight it and I had been looking through second hand stores and Goodwill and like some would be kind of the right size but like what are you gonna do with the matting and blah blah blah or not quite right I so I just was googling like vintage frames in Austin and I came across a vintage framing studio Which is it’s one woman She works out of her garage.

And so she basically goes and gets all these old, all the good stuff from either, you know, I think she says she clears them out of like, what are those things called? The storage units. When people are cleaning stuff out, she’ll go and get it from there, or she’ll get them from consignment shops. And so she just has.

All these frames that you can choose from and then if anything doesn’t quite fit right, she also does the matting and you can choose all the different custom matting to go with it. And of course, if you’re like me, you have a lot of frames that have broken glass in them. Um, so she’ll cut the glass and she’ll reuse glass from other things.

So it’s a lot of reduce, reuse, recycling going

[00:44:06] Missy: I love it.

[00:44:07] Susanne: And so we just went there. It was hot, but because it’s in her garage,

[00:44:14] Missy: writing it down, not like I won’t have access to this information later, but I’m writing it down right now.

[00:44:18] Susanne: but so we just went through and she pulls out a bunch of ideas. You kind of say what you’re looking for and of course she’s pretty familiar with what she’s got and she’ll pull out some stuff and she’s got like all the little swatches of the different matting that you can choose from so you can mix and match and so Like two and a half weeks ago or so, we just took everything and we’re like, here it is and we found a frame for everything.

We had probably seven pieces, I think. so we were shocked that we were able to find something for everything, but she’s so. I don’t want to say loosey goosey. She’s just kind of, she’s kind of Austin, like, in the sense that, like, we just handed over all these prized posters to her, and she wrote something k