While the Fightin’ 58th battle over a worthless rock in space, we wonder if the cockroaches were real, is it ironic or operatic that Tank is afraid of tanks, and if this episode is a senseless wreck or a key piece of groundwork for an epic 4th Season episode that never was.

Kenneth and Eugene discuss The Enemy.

*Note: In this episode, the Commodore has been inadvertently promoted to Admiral. The episode synopsis has been edited to reflect Commodore Ross’ correct rank.

Episode Synopsis

Colonel McQueen and Commodore Ross question members of the Fightin’ 58th to determine if Damp Mouse should be court-martialed for failure to follow orders in a combat situation.

Through flashbacks, the story of a fateful mission to the planet called TaTARus unfolds.

TaTArus is an inhospitable failed star of a planet with a lethal atmosphere and burning temperatures in excess of 60º.  The team discusses rumors about the planet – that it is a worthless planet with no strategic value, that 1,000s of lives have been lost fighting over the planet, that there are massive numbers of desertions and deaths by friendly fire – yet for some reason, the brass continues to pursue securing the planet.

Landing on the planet, they soon come under nearby fire, and Marines from outside clamber desperately to get into the shuttle.  The weapons fire isn’t coming from the Chigs; it’s a Marine.  Tank wants to shoot him, but the others decide to try to capture him.  As they exit the vehicle, they find many more Marine bodies killed by the gunman.

The crazed Marine runs out of bullets, and they try to talk him into putting his weapon down.  He cannot be reasoned with, and he says they should be afraid of him as he is of himself.  He steps on a Chig landmine and dies.

As the team returns to the shuttle, a series of flashing lights, penetrating all the way to their skeletons, hits them, giving them radiation burns and headaches.  Damp Mouse is the first to manifest signs of madness, as she freaks out at the sight of her own blood.  As the others try to comfort her, Wang freaks out when he sees a cockroach; he chases and kills it with a knife.  Unfortunately, he also kills the transmitter at the same time.  Now they cannot call the Colonel for help.

Damp Mouse has an idea.  Out amongst the corpses is a portable communications pack.  They could remove a part from it, and she could repair the radio.  It should be her job to go get the part, but she refuses a direct order because she will not put on her blood-stained suit.

The others go out, but all are suffering from various forms of psychoses.  Killer is afraid of the dark, Tank is claustrophobic, and West keeps hearing a woman calling for help.  As the others get the part, West wanders off following the voice.  He comes to a Marine bunker and meets a Sgt. that tells him, in incoherent terms, that the light is their worst nightmares.  He disappears before the others arrive.

Inside the bunker, all the Marines have murdered each other.

West and Wang put the pieces together. The light is a Chig weapon that disrupts the amygdala – the part of the brain to regulates fear.  The fear ultimately causes everyone to turn on one another.

They return to the ship, but along the way, Killer steps on a landmine.  Wang attempts to save her by using a mirror to deflect the lethal beam from the mine when he discovers a cockroach in his helmet and freaks out.  West steps in and saves Killer, but they are zapped again by the light, amplifying their fears.

Inside the shuttle, Damp Mouse accidentally spilled some blood all over the floor, and she cannot move from her current location because she would have to cross the blood on the floor.  She will not let the others into the shuttle, and they have to hot-wire the airlock door.  Now that they have the part, she will not go to the radio. The team’s fears have all gotten them into a Mexican standoff – they will kill the others rather than face their fears.  Ultimately, Killer places the part and calls for help.

McQueen received the distress call and landed 75 meters away, on the other side of the minefield.  Mustering their courage and a Marine Corps song, they make their way across the minefield to the waiting shuttle.  West wanders off again when he hears the woman’s voice, but Killer brings him back.

After hearing the testimony, the Commodore and McQueen decide not to press charges.

The following transcript is machine-generated and not 100% accurate. It has not been manually corrected.

[00:00:01.17] Podcast: MUSIC PLAYING

[00:00:12.07] Eugene: You're listening to Fusion Patrol, a listener-supported podcast. Each week we take a single episode of Science Fiction TV series movies, movie or audio and over-analyze it to within an inch of its life. Welcome to the discussion.

[00:00:45.54] Eugene: Hello and welcome to another episode of Fusion Patrol. I'm Eugene.

[00:00:48.33] Kenneth: And I am Kenneth.

[00:00:49.58] Eugene: And tonight we're looking at "Space Above and Beyond" episode 7, "The Enemy." And before we start with this synopsis, I just want to say that when I saw the name "The Enemy" in the queue for the next episode, my brain instantly went to, "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

[00:01:04.83] Kenneth: That's your right, and, uh...

[00:01:06.17] Eugene: Maybe. We'll talk about that quote later, but I mean, that one, that would definitely just instantly popped into my head and I go, I, I don't see why I've made that connection. Maybe it's the fact that they use the word "the" and I don't know, but it just, it just popped. Anyway, episode synopsis. Colonel McQueen and Admiral Ross question members of the fighting 58th. to determine if Dampmouse should be court-martialed for failure to follow orders in a combat situation. Through flashbacks, the story of a fateful mission to the planet called Tataras unfolds. Tataras is an inhospitable failed star of a planet with a lethal atmosphere and burning temperatures in excess of 60 degrees Celsius. The team discusses rumors about the planet, that it is a worthless planet with no strategic value, that thousands of lives have been lost fighting over it, that there are massive numbers of desertions and deaths by friendly fire. Yet, for some reason, the Brass continue to pursue securing the planet. Landing on the planet, they soon come under nearby fire and marines from outside. clamber desperately to get into the shuttle. The weapon spire isn't coming from the Chigs. It's a Marine. Tank wants to shoot him, but the others decide to try to capture him. As they exit the vehicle, they find many more Marine bodies killed by the gunman. The crazed Marine runs out of bullets, and they try to talk him into putting his weapon down. He cannot be reasoned with. with, and he says that they should be afraid of him as he is of himself. He steps on a chigging landmine and dies. As the team return to the shuttle, a series of flashing lights penetrating all the way to their skeletons hits them, giving them radiation burns and headaches. Damp Mouse is the first to manifest signs of madness as she freaks out at the sight As the others try to comfort her, Wang freaks out when he sees a cockroach. He chases it, and he kills it with a knife. Fortunately, he also kills the transmitter at the same time. Now, they cannot call the colonel for help. Dantmouse has an idea. Out amongst the corpses is a portable communications pack. They could remove a part from it, and she could repair it. the radio. It should be her job to go out and get the part, but she refuses a direct order because she will not put on her bloodstained suit. The others go out, but all are suffering from various forms of psychoses. Killer is afraid of the dark, Tank is claustrophobic, and West keeps hearing a woman calling for help. As the others get the part, West wanders off following the voice. He comes to a marine bunker and he meets a sergeant that tells him, in incoherent terms, that the light is their worst nightmares. He disappears before the others arrive. Inside the bunker all the Marines have murdered each other. West and Wang put the pieces together. The light is a Chig weapon that disrupts the amygdala, part of the brain to regulate fear. ultimately causes everyone to turn on one another. They return to the ship, but along the way, Killer steps on a landmine. Wong attempts to save her by using a mirror to deflect the lethal beam from the mine, when he discovers a cockroach in his helmet, and he freaks out. Wes steps in and saves Killer, but they are zapped again by the light, amplifying their fears. Inside the shuttle, Dantmouth accidentally spilled blood all over the floor and she cannot move from her current location because she would have to cross the blood. She will not let the others into the shuttle and they have to hotwire the airlock door. Now that they have the part, she will not go to the radio. The team's fears have all gotten them into a Mexican standoff. They will kill each other rather than face their fears. Finally, Killer places the part and calls for help. McQueen receives a distress call and lands 75 meters away, on the other side of the minefield. Mustering their courage, and a Marine Corps song, they make their way across the minefield to the waiting shuttle. West wanders off again when he hears the woman's voice, but Killer brings him back. After hearing the testimony, the Admiral and McQueen decide not to press charges." Okay, well, you know, at least, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, at least this was sort of a science fiction story, whereas last week's was more of just a political intrigue thing. So here, at least, we're trying to explore the idea of alternate forms of... weaponry in science fiction.

[00:05:36.68] Kenneth: Yes. Yeah, good point. But I still, um, remembered the pit of, um, to use a term I once heard, "pseudo-profound bulls**t" at the end. (sobbing) when it was Vanson, Killer as you call her, who said that the enemy was on the planet, but the enemy was not the Chigs.

[00:06:01.44] Eugene: I thought that was, um, I thought that was tank. Was it set up? it wasn't that it wasn't the Chigs. I think Vanson started it, and I think

[00:06:10.32] Kenneth: Yeah, okay.

[00:06:20.39] Eugene: Like that, yes

[00:06:21.60] Kenneth: I found that far

[00:06:22.51] Eugene: Too profound for him.

[00:06:24.08] Kenneth: Yes, I found it to be rather evidence of an effort to make something profound out of a not-so-profound episode.

[00:06:33.23] Eugene: I'm not going to disagree. Like I said, that quote hit me before this episode starts, and that means this is a very unsubtle attempt.

[00:06:42.54] Kenneth: It must have been

[00:06:44.30] Eugene: Really unsubtle, because it just... there it was. Let me... let me... I had to look this up, because I wanted to... I wanted to get it right, because I've heard that quote forever. "We have met the enemy, and he is us."

[00:06:56.02] Kenneth: Isn't it pogo?

[00:06:56.81] Eugene: Pogo, yes, that's right. It's Walt Kelly's Pogo. It first appeared April 22, 1970 for the first Earth Day. It is an indictment of who it is that is destroying the Earth. It is us. are the problem. Okay, fair enough. It's a play on Admiral Perry's 1813 commentary after the defeat of the British at Lake Erie We have met the enemy and they are ours. Now. I always actually thought that quote was From Admiral Perry the the they are us or he is us

[00:07:29.21] Kenneth: I didn't mean I've just never bothered to think about it. The quote is so

[00:07:33.83] Eugene: Famous, but it is the Pogo version that is far more famous, I think, because that's what I've heard. I think it, I think it plays into the zeitgeist a little bit better, right? There, there is... That's sort of, yeah. Yeah, we suck. We're humans, we suck. We've met the enemy and it's us. Yeah, and people just have taken that to heart. Unfortunately, the writers took that to heart.

[00:08:00.30] Kenneth: >> The writers -- That's the writer were writers were Glenn Morgan and James Wong.

[00:08:07.23] Eugene: Really, bye. Filling. They cranked out one full of plot holes like nobody's business.

[00:08:12.86] Kenneth: Yes, the only positive statement I have for regarding this episode regards the direction.

[00:08:23.55] Eugene: Okay, we're done.

[00:08:24.42] Kenneth: I thought the directing was capable, and it was well done, and that part held my attention, but the story did not.

[00:08:37.47] Eugene: Well, I will have to say that I think that some of the direction with regards to how landmines are placed did not hold up very well. Because... Because they're not hidden. (laughing) But they're, they're in play. Clean site.

[00:08:53.12] Kenneth: But in their head the dark

[00:08:54.38] Eugene: But unfortunately, they can't show us the dark. Like they would on the other side of the world. The X-Files, it's... Yeah. us to see it so yeah it kind of and and and you know using x-files as an example you know they were very good and it's a contemporary show and obviously there's some lineage here between the two they were very good at using very dark sets and very strong lights you know they had those xenon lights i think it was that and Scully would use that were ridiculously bright but that allowed them to you know drop that very dark moody which is good for a show about scary things but they should have used that technique here as well and I had been more convinced about killer having fear of the dark if it were a lot more dark or even the scene where they're in the shuttle when the lights are red Then she's like, "Oh, you gotta turn on the lights!" You didn't. They're wrong, they're just red lights. Yeah, I'd really like that. It's not dark in there.

[00:09:54.04] Kenneth: BLANK Some The director was Michael Ketelman. comment. Watch him, Rob. He's been quite busy over the years in various genres of television. I did look up some genre credits. He directed Shadows, season one, episode six of The X-Files.

[00:10:22.34] Eugene: Shadows that unfortunately x-files names are not always The rest is up to you. Uh, my brain says that's the werewolf one, but I don't think it is.

[00:10:29.91] Kenneth: I can check, and "shadows" is... okay, the description here is "Mulder and Scully investigate the deaths of two men believed to have been killed by a powerful psychokinetic force."

[00:10:44.00] Eugene: Okay, since that narrows it down to a few.

[00:10:47.88] Kenneth: And let me see, yeah, but okay, he directed that one. to that one, and here we go. He directed the last episode of Steven Spielberg's "Taken" in 2008.

[00:11:02.19] Kenneth: - Okay.

[00:11:03.03] Kenneth: Okay And that was actually a fairly, it was a much better episode than the one we are discussing.

[00:11:09.08] Eugene: Laughter Yeah, while we're on the direction, I mean, I think he did a... Okay, there are some issues that are out of his hands, so I'm not gonna... We're huge in time. OUT

[00:11:24.27] Kenneth: Where the wither away wearing the same clothes and they're all

[00:11:27.82] Eugene: That their heads and helmets were in the right place. Let's get started.

[00:11:30.56] Kenneth: Oh, the other helmet, see, yeah, yeah, yeah, and, uh... So you can't always tell who's doing what.

[00:11:35.78] Eugene: So for example, and I only watched this once. There were, I believe... three guys trying to get into the shuttle. Yes?

[00:11:43.78] Kenneth: Yes, yes they were.

[00:11:45.45] Eugene: One of them was killed, and I thought the other two got on board the shuttle. Whatever happened to them?

[00:11:49.47] Kenneth: I do remember that, and I remember that that is unresolved.

[00:11:54.59] Eugene: OK, good, because we never see them again. They're not in the team where they I don't think they're in the team when they go to the McQueen's shuttle at the end. No, I don't think so. Like they had any contribution to this. story when they were Mexican standoffing in the shuttle. It's just like, um, well, what happened? And maybe they were killed and I just somehow thought that they were on the shuttle and it was actually our guys because they were all wearing spacesuits and so

[00:12:23.67] Kenneth: And of course the helmet that has the name, the last name across the top.

[00:12:29.82] Eugene: Pretty prominent.

[00:12:31.02] Kenneth: Yes, and sometimes reading that name was difficult.

[00:12:35.05] Eugene: Yeah. Or, you know, if they're just not facing the camera. Right. So, yeah, it's just, so that's not their problem. Of course, they're in a dark, murky space, and they're all walking through a very classic Star Trek-style, styrofoam rocks. Yeah... Yeah, he's like, okay. Well, that's a group of people. Is that do we do we know who that is? I don't know I mean like I can't tell so, you know that that would work against him There were you know, there were times where I'm just all right I I'm not sure what's going on here because I don't think they can first off I don't think they know what's going on here, but second off And then they tell it through flashback, which is a terrible way already is already a strike against the story I know there are people who like flashback stories, but you know I think you have to be able to you have to do something with it and They didn't do anything with it In this case... different perspectives.

[00:13:35.09] Kenneth: Well, they did something with it, but they didn't do what you're talking about here. They filled out the airtime of the episode with it.

[00:13:43.25] Eugene: Okay, yes, they filled out some runtime with it.

[00:13:46.87] Kenneth: That was it.

[00:13:47.99] Eugene: I don't disagree there.

[00:13:50.22] Kenneth: INTERPOSING VOICES

[00:13:52.26] Eugene: END PLAYBACK

[00:13:52.76] Kenneth: Watched this episode and took my notes, I went to a website that has reviews of all these episodes to see if I could learn something the episode did not tell me.

[00:14:04.44] Eugene: (laughing)

[00:14:06.68] Kenneth: And the movie blog is the name of the website, and I have the episode review up on my other computer screen here, and this is the opening line of the review. On paper, the enemy seems like a good idea.

[00:14:24.96] Eugene: Laughter Okay, well I think I might argue with him in the first place, but okay.

[00:14:31.35] Kenneth: And then it goes on. They might be wrong. on to say that the problem with the enemy is that it is just a clumsy mess of a script and one that stumbles over what should be a fairly robust setup.

[00:14:46.01] Eugene: It could have been. It could have been good. I'm not going to argue there. There is potential for this to be a good story. Like I said, they've got a solid science fiction idea. I don't think that the fact that you are terrified of cockroaches leads inevitably to you killing all of your teammates, right? That, that. that doesn't work very well at all, and there's some enormous contrivances in it. Like, for example, let's talk about their phobias here real quickly. Yes. has a phobia of blood. any manifestation of that previously in the series, and there is a scene where a packet of blood falls out of the pouch on the descent, out of the medical kit, and she kind of gingerly pushes it back in there and slams the chart, but you couldn't, you couldn't figure out from that that she's supposed to have, she's supposed to be terrified of blood, and you'd think... being a Marine, maybe being terrified of blood might be a crippling problem.

[00:15:52.35] Kenneth: Especially during wartime.

[00:15:54.24] Eugene: Yeah, especially during wartime, but then let's follow that up with the incredible contrivance of managing to break the blood and spill it all over the floor in such a place where she can't frost it, which of course she ultimately does. So we've had no backstory on that. We go, "Tank is apparently concerned with enclosed spaces." Okay, there's a certain irony about it. guy who was raised in a tank being afraid of being in a tank but okay We've not seen that happen. before and yet prior to them zapping him with a light twice twice we saw him looking at the helmet before he put it on I know I'm just like Why? What what's and this is I don't think the director did a good job. It's like why is he doing that? What what is about the helmet? Does he see something? Is it I don't get it I mean, I I just didn't get it until later in the thing and suddenly he's got claustrophobia. It's like well that we didn't work Killer, okay. She has a back story. She's afraid of the dark because the night the AIs came and killed her parents, it was dark. Counterpoint to that, we have seen that scene, and guess what it wasn't? It wasn't dark! So, oop.

[00:17:18.90] Kenneth: Oops, a needle.

[00:17:20.35] Eugene: Now, Walner Wang is afraid of cockroaches. Now, those are, I believe, Madagascar cockroaches,

[00:17:25.67] Kenneth: 'cause those are big and nasty looking.

[00:17:27.74] Eugene: I can totally relate to him. I can totally relate to him. I'm sure I've probably told my "Land of the Bally

[00:17:34.77] Kenneth: of the Dinosaurs" cockroach story.

[00:17:36.58] Eugene: We had good-sized cockroaches in Tucson when I was a kid. One day, I was watching an episode of "Valley of the Dinosaurs." I don't know, six, seven, eight, something like that, and it was a story where the giant two-inch soldier ants were swarming the valley, you know, redoing that. Yeah. me at the moment and I'm sitting in the chair and I find that disturbing and I'm sitting in an armchair with my feet up holding my knees and I'm watching this thing and I'm thinking I get this creepy feeling that something is watching me from behind and I turn and look at the the headrest but you know the an armchair Armchair kind of comes around you Yes, up near There's a cockroach sitting there. staring at me, and I mean, I was like, through to the other side of the house screaming so fast, it's not funny, and on top of that, occasionally they'd be in my shoes. Yeah. I distinctly remember one day I was at school, probably in my third period in high school, and I kept thinking that my sock was bunched up under my foot and I I finally took the shoe off. to straighten, and a cockroach, still alive, leaps out and runs across the thing. I'm psyched. I still, to this day, tap my shoes before I put them on, and this is not because we have scorpions here either. This is because there are cockroaches in Arizona. There are cockroaches everywhere, and we have the big ones, big sewer roaches there, but they're not as big as those Madagascar ones, but they're close. So if I had a phobia like him, I would tap my helmet every single day. Take your time, boys. I ever put anything on like that and I can't buy that that was in his helmet because I know from personal experience that I would never put on a space helmet without especially when I'd already seen cockroaches earlier in the day and was freaking out about him there was no way that I wouldn't I used to sleep with my blanket over my head and I would tuck the blanket underneath my Right.

[00:19:33.68] Kenneth: Because I was afraid the cockroaches would crawl.

[00:19:35.74] Eugene: Or three in the night. I mean, I'm sure whoever wrote this has had that experience because his description was Exactly on the money.

[00:19:47.40] Kenneth: OUT Oh, have we ever seen? Scenic cockroach on the space Yeah, yeah.

[00:19:51.89] Eugene: Now, of course.

[00:19:53.58] Kenneth: Actually, I wondered if he was imagining some of those.

[00:19:59.35] Eugene: Well, we did see the other step on them.

[00:20:00.93] Kenneth: Yeah, well, some of them. Maybe not all, but you know.

[00:20:04.13] Eugene: I agree that that was the thought that crossed my mind. Is she imagining the cockroaches? I don't think he was. Well, when he pulled out the knife, there was a cockroach on it.

[00:20:14.61] Kenneth: Yes.

[00:20:15.49] Eugene: uh somebody else stepped on one and did it where he couldn't see i don't know about the one in his helmet but uh i i don't see how they could have stopped me from tearing that helmet off off in that deadly the atmosphere, you know, "Where the heck is he from? I'm not going back to that place. I'm not going... where is he from? Tucson?" I thought tank was the one

[00:20:36.93] Kenneth: One from Detroit. Well, I don't know. I that didn't get anything about the geography, but I just thought maybe he grew up in some tenement. Maybe?

[00:20:45.86] Eugene: I also I honestly don't know. I mean, it just was kind of, "I'm not going back to that place." I thought maybe he was in a prisoner of war camp, the way he was describing it, and then West, he has his fear of never finding his girlfriend. Is that really an amygdala-type fear? I thought we knew about it already. That's more of a, that's a more, that's not a fear. Really? I mean that's not, "Oh my god, I'm scared to death that I'll never find my girlfriend." You're not scared by that. You may be upset by it. You may be... Obsessed. Obsessed, but you do not... Yeah. Don't go your pants in terror like all the other people were doing, right? It's the wrong fear, and it just doesn't manifest well in this story. It's like, find something that would actually make him run away instead of making him run towards. It just didn't, and that's it. I've got more stories.

[00:21:44.98] Kenneth: I noticed it too. I did notice a couple of other items here that made me

[00:21:49.90] Eugene: Write arch an eyebrow and write a note

[00:21:52.89] Kenneth: (laughing) Excellent. About 10 minutes in, Wang, or Wong, uses light year as a unit, a measure. Oh, yeah, tired

[00:22:03.73] Eugene: Yeah Yeah, I saw, I got that. Okay, and... Our war is uh...

[00:22:10.44] Kenneth: Yeah, the parsec thing. I didn't know if that was Okay in Star Wars. I could take it as being clever and maybe humor In this case, this is this dot one for humor.

[00:22:23.75] Eugene: Nope, this is just a mistake.

[00:22:25.42] Kenneth: Yes, and then, I'll just write, I'll read my note verbatim here. If disobeying a direct order were a serious offense in this series. (laughing) These theories would have concluded in the pilot episode.

[00:22:40.61] Eugene: Yep, guess it would have. Yes, it would have. But we're at war. Yeah. Yeah. One of many. One of many.

[00:22:50.40] Kenneth: I mean the McQueen is highly variable as to how much he cares about people disobeying orders.

[00:23:08.15] Eugene: Very much so. Very much so. Depends on whether it works out for the best or not. I guess if it doesn't work out then you, uh, then you... Maybe that's what it is. This didn't work out well, right? Lots of dead marines, uh, the team, uh, I mean, it's trying to kill each other, and, uh, so now you disobeyed orders. We're going to take it seriously. But had they rescued, uh, you know, a thousand people, then they would have just ignored it. Which, you know, is probably not really the way it should go, but there you go. Got any more notes? There?

[00:23:34.89] Kenneth: That is it on my notes and this one was, there was just, there wasn't a lot going on in this one.

[00:23:41.57] Eugene: All right, well I'll hit my, uh... I'll get my mostly picky things. Dampmouse's suit was damaged. Did she not cut her suit? And that was part of Good job.

[00:23:53.13] Kenneth: Would not go out onto the planet. yes

[00:23:56.38] Eugene: But in the end, she had to put her suit on and go out onto the planet.

[00:23:59.60] Kenneth: to get to the

[00:24:00.79] Eugene: And it wasn't a damaged suit. So, okay. Killer had a light. She kept turning it on because she was like, "And tank is like..."

[00:24:07.98] Kenneth: Brother, I don't need light!

[00:24:09.98] Eugene: And he finally smashed the light?

[00:24:12.30] Kenneth: People will see us trying to do this. in the dark and then

[00:24:14.39] Eugene: Yeah. They had another light a few minutes later.

[00:24:18.42] Kenneth: Mm-hmm.

[00:24:19.75] Eugene: Wong was carrying it, or Wang was carrying it. I think they call him Wang. That bugs me because it should be Wong, and don't tell me about the computer company because they just got it wrong. But yeah, so that was weird. But again, it comes back to this story doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Like, where did those two guys go? So, we're split. Well, why did they have to go out and get the chip from the communications pack? Why couldn't they just, I don't know, get the communications pack? Bring it in. bring it in and then do the work instead of doing it in your spacesuit out in the thing. That didn't make any sense. When they got to this court-martial thing or this preliminary hearing to see if they should have a court-martial and they kept asking these questions, I kept saying to myself, "Why aren't they hooked up to a truth verifier?"

[00:25:07.51] Kenneth: Those two exist.

[00:25:08.79] Eugene: Yes, oddly enough, I do believe they do, in this very use...

[00:25:11.29] Kenneth: We saw one in the previous episode.

[00:25:13.73] Eugene: Yeah, exactly, exactly. I think the same thing about Star Trek, right? You've got Wolf of the Fold. You've got that.

[00:25:22.71] Kenneth: You've got the truth thing, subject relaying.

[00:25:25.08] Eugene: Accurate response. no physiological changes, over and over and over again, and they never use it again. They never use it in any court martial episode. They never use it. Indigo! Not even in the future. It's like, we just don't use it, and the funny thing is, of course, in real life, we do have lie detectors, and I will say this unequivocally to anyone who has any doubt, it is complete and absolute pseudoscience. It does not work, and the fact that it is admissible in courts in parts of this country is an absolute disgrace.

[00:25:55.57] Kenneth: Exactly, and there are intelligence agents who are... Yes. to deceive them.

[00:26:01.87] Eugene: And they don't work to start with, so... Yeah, it's like... Yeah, it's just not, uh, yeah. But anyway, but apparently in this universe, the Truth Verifier, which you're doing an eye thing, does work, and they use it in the government, so they should have been using it for proceedings like this, you would think. It's a good question. Let's, let's, because this is not a good episode, let's answer that question. If you had a device which would guarantee force someone to tell the truth or identify when they are lying, would it be appropriate to use it in a judicial system? When you swear them in on the stand and put them down on the device and say, "Okay, now tell us the truth." If you could prove it was accurate, truly accurate, would that be a good or a bad thing?

[00:26:48.58] Kenneth: Or at least can you get you the truth.

[00:26:50.82] Eugene: Which I think is what we're always after, but I don't know.

[00:26:53.09] Kenneth: - Yes, yeah.

[00:26:54.04] Eugene: He's just into getting his people off, you know?

[00:26:58.14] Kenneth: Well, um... Well, Kerry Mason. usually got the innocent people as well with a show.

[00:27:03.93] Eugene: Yeah, he did. At least on Saturday nights. Yeah, it's, yeah, but it just, it does raise

[00:27:10.19] Kenneth: an interesting question whether or not you would, whether or not you would want, would people want that? I mean, and what good argument could you make against it? I guess, I guess

[00:27:20.56] Eugene: You don't want people going on fishing expeditions, which I will say that is something Perry Mason time. He would cast a net during his interrogation of people or his questioning of people to try to get additional facts thrown in, and if you were on a truth verifier, how would you decide whether the question was appropriate to be asked so as to not reveal something that was not germane specifically to the case that might prejudice? I don't know.

[00:27:46.42] Kenneth: Good question.

[00:27:48.42] Eugene: Probably better minds than mine, or at least-- better legal minds that are mine. I would need to look it up, but hopefully we're nowhere. Would you need a trial? Did you commit the murder? No? Lie, lie, lie.

[00:28:01.60] Kenneth: - There you go. - There we go.

[00:28:02.38] Eugene: - Why have a trial? Why, why have a trial? Yeah. Again, predicated on the idea that it's infallible.

[00:28:09.38] Kenneth: Just go straight to sentencing. Yep, there is a stupid line. Yes, yes, there is. I'm par- There are a few.

[00:28:18.42] Eugene: If they can use fear as a weapon, then they must understand fear themselves.

[00:28:25.67] Kenneth: Ah, that one.

[00:28:27.74] Eugene: Is that true? Oh yes, is it true?

[00:28:31.65] Kenneth: Second off, we already knew they feared things. We already know that a few things are right, but to get to your question, at least it tells me that they understand something of human physiology. Yes, that's it. That's the Sabbath saying, "They understand fear."

[00:28:47.48] Eugene: They capture somebody, they probe their brains, one part of the brain causes the person to do something weird. They say, "Let's make a weapon to make them do something weird." It's all they need to do. You We don't need to understand it for yourself, but we think they do because they're apparently afraid of dead bodies.

[00:29:02.88] Kenneth: We have established that. Yes, or at least that was the supposition as to why they avoid the dead bodies, but And to say that a member of a species understands fear is not exactly going out on a limb.

[00:29:17.23] Eugene: No, not as we understand evolution, no. No. I mean, it's it's a it's a part of your flight or fight response, really. Yes. So, but I guess, yeah, it's possible that if you... I've read science fiction books where species grew up on a planet that had no predators, and so they have a completely different kind of fear reaction. But even still, you know, I'm afraid of a tree falling on me in a lightning storm.

[00:29:47.88] Kenneth: Still.

[00:29:48.88] Eugene: Should have something do we think Space suits really look suitable to go up to 60 degree Celsius temperatures? Because to me they look like fatigues with a silly helmet on and not pressure or heat protective. Yeah. (audio cuts out)

[00:30:06.97] Kenneth: - Yeah, and it's like, or as long as there are safety issues, like I'm afraid to touch a hot stove, you know. But yeah, that's...

[00:30:14.07] Eugene: Yeah, I- Yeah, I've got a pair of gloves. They're like, you know, you got all sorts of hot hot gloves, right? But I have I have a pair of like fireman gloves for working my Smoker grill, right? So I mean it can handle I think 600 Fahrenheit, but it is it's a fascinating material It's all that multi layers of weaving that they make for firefighter outfits and you're not running around like they are in those, of course 60 degrees Celsius is not that nowhere near that hot, but still just they don't seem air-conditioned. When they start the story they're talking about how this planet was a failed star. You failed star or has a surface.

[00:30:59.73] Kenneth: I said, "Good question." I thought that made no sense to me. I mean, my granted amateur knowledge of astronomy tells me that if Jupiter were larger to some extent, it could become a star. But... new surface on Jupiter.

[00:31:25.14] Eugene: Right, right, the gas giant, you need to be a gas giant to start with, and then, it's, you've got to be a bit bigger. I think Jupiter is considered to be a failed star. You just did not gather enough material to... to become a... to become a star so you know that's there's a fine line there but this does not give that impression at all second off what was wrong with Wang when he called the planet Tartarus the the place beyond hell it's like do you mean Tartarus look Yeah, what's the time? Why are you emphasiz- have you never heard that word spoken in your life before? And you just keep- *gibberish* *sniff*

[00:32:07.20] Kenneth: Don't do not know it

[00:32:09.45] Eugene: See you soon.

[00:32:11.45] Kenneth: Not a pronunciation I would use.

[00:32:13.19] Eugene: Um, I'm gonna come around to this one because it's actually the most important thing in this episode and I'll save it for the last.

[00:32:20.43] Kenneth: You can get them.

[00:32:21.42] Eugene: The skeleton effect was hilarious.

[00:32:24.27] Kenneth: Yeah.

[00:32:25.26] Eugene: That was like a Bugs Bunny cartoon. That was so bad. If if they got enough radiation for us to see their skeletons like that.

[00:32:34.41] Kenneth: They're dead.

[00:32:36.41] Eugene: They're dead. We don't need to worry about their amygdala's falling off. They're dead, and the radiation burns. I mean, they got instantly got radiation burns. Those people are dead. That also leads into that final point, so I'll just, I'll switch off to the Marine Song! Born in the woods, trained by bear, dollars on a set of dog teeth, triple coat of hair. Uh, I can't read the rest of it, depending on which version, uh... He's quite rebel. Yep. Um, but, uh, I mean, it involves brass and, uh, and cast iron, but I can't go any further. Good. Good to know that these tighter, worn, bold marine songs are still still going there for the, in the future. Okay. Why? This, this is the part that just bugs the heck out of me about this episode. There are. episodes of M*A*S*H, and I'll use M*A*S*H as an example because M*A*S*H is the ultimate military story ever told on television, in my humble opinion, and there are a lot of times in M*A*S*H where we get discussions about Hill 403, for example. They want Hill 403, we want Hill 403. 403, then we take it, then they take it, and we take it, and there's a push, they get back, and da-da-da-da-da-da, thousands of people were killed or harmed, battered all over the place, which is why they come into the MASH unit, and sometimes we're told that these hills are strategically important, and in other times they're kind of less strategically important, right? belittled as to how pointless it is that we keep trying to take this hill and then take it back or...

[00:34:20.33] Kenneth: That is a plot point that comes up in a number of military stories. Yes. particular of Paths of Glory directed by Stanley Kubrick does that.

[00:34:32.72] Eugene: But it comes up in this episode, and we are told explicitly that this is a worthless rock that isn't strategically significant, and yet they have lost thousands of lives. Their word, not mine. Why did they have to do that? But why have they lost so much weight?

[00:34:47.62] Kenneth: One.

[00:34:48.38] Eugene: Have they lost one? Why have we got all these MIAs? Why are there rumors that people are killed by friendly fire? If all of that is well known enough to have made it into the scuttlebutt that gets back to the grunts on this marine team, why has the brass still got people on that rock? There has to be something that we're not being told here. Because those people have been there for a while. There are loads of dead marines. We alone in just one little spot see a bunch of dead marines, and we see evidence of MIA, we see evidence of friendly fire, it's clear that this planet, that this rock is deadly, and it's clear that they're not being killed by the enemy either. So why is it that they keep sending people there? Why is it that they send a resupply team there? Unless this is like, oh... Tech would like us to secure this planet for some reason, which that is not in this episode. But that's the only thing I can think of, is that this is meant to make us ask the question, why aren't they trying to keep this rock? Because if it had been about an episode like in M*A*S*H, where they're talking about the futileness of it, they would have made a point of it, a much bigger point. point of it, but they didn't. They just mentioned it and then forgot it.

[00:36:09.79] Kenneth: Yes, I can believe that in this series that Aerotech may be pulling a number of strings in the military.

[00:36:19.53] Eugene: But we would still have to have a reason. Bye. of this rock.

[00:36:25.06] Kenneth: Yes, military industrial complex, maybe there's something there.

[00:36:29.11] Eugene: So that is an open-end question for us to say, you know, because how could the brass already know about this weapon? I believe centipede

[00:36:40.27] Kenneth: They're not know about this if they Oh, we're off. Yeah, so, and I don't care whether or not Aerotech wants it, and we don't know if it's

[00:36:49.14] Eugene: Aerotech or anything else, you don't keep sending people in to a zone that is universally lethal.

[00:36:58.06] Kenneth: Even the Marines aren't that stupid.

[00:37:01.56] Eugene: No, and if there is no hope of them surviving, and there's no evidence whatsoever that anybody knows how to counteract this weapon, so.., and I don't think our guys are so brilliant that they land there on the planet, and within an hour they've figured out that there's a secret Chig weapon that works on their amygdala. I find it hard to believe that there isn't somebody smarter than those... Melons. Yeah. Somewhere in the Marine Corps. So yeah, I that

[00:37:31.45] Kenneth: That is the one thing that.

[00:37:33.45] Eugene: I'm out of this, like it feels like it's setting something up.

[00:37:35.35] Kenneth: Yes, and there are a few unknowns here, at least from my perspective. One is that this is episode 7 of 23. Yes, sir. be something coming up between 8 and 23 that maybe helps to explain some of this. Number two, this, the series creators had in mind a five season arc, and so they were Probably a little bit. laying down hints in Season 1 to pay off in Seasons 2 through 5, and so when I come across an unknown, unexplained issue, I wonder, "Is this something that they're going to pay off later, but never got the chance to do?" Maybe. Or maybe it was bad writing.

[00:38:31.69] Eugene: Yeah, I don't know which it is, but I admit that my brain kind of says, "It's hard to believe the writing was that bad, therefore they must be setting this up." But on the other hand, looking at the rest of the episode, it's not hard to believe it's that bad. But it is Morgan and Wong, and... They are the architects, so you would think that their fingers would be in on the mythos

[00:39:03.41] Kenneth: If you will.

[00:39:05.41] Eugene: to use the X-Files term. So, I don't know. I guess we will find out, or we won't, because if it was in Season 4, we got a problem. Now they have a problem. We're going to have a problem. We would have a problem if there was a season four. No, I take it back that we wouldn't have a problem because if there was a season 4 we would not be looking at this show - That's right, that's right. That's all we would be saying. Oh, it all depends. I think that's everything I've got on this.

[00:39:43.29] Kenneth: Okay, then I guess one thing left to say is that next we have a two-parter. Episode 8 is "Hostile Visit" and episode number 9 is "Choice or Chance."

[00:39:57.72] Eugene: Well, we have a chance that they might be good. We will be doing the both as one podcast, so we shall see. Kenneth, thank you for joining me.

[00:40:09.46] Kenneth: My pleasure.

[00:40:11.46] Eugene: Blisterers! I hope you'll join us all again next time on Fusion Patrol. (upbeat music)

[00:40:18.53] Eugene: You've been listening to Fusion Patrol. Thank you for listening.

[00:40:22.74] Eugene: If you've enjoyed this episode we hope you'll consider supporting us at buymeacoffee.com/fusionpatrol or patreon.com/fusionpatrol. For our monthly Patreon Subscribers, we're currently running in a special series on Babylon 5.

[00:40:45.29] Eugene: Come join the conversation in the comments section of this episode at fusionpatrol.com You'll also find there over a decade of past episodes.

[00:40:55.70] Eugene: You can also find some of our other works at SoundCloud.com.

[00:41:02.82] Eugene: Our music is Fight the Future, by Amberwolf.

[00:41:07.03] Eugene: This has been a Lone Locust production.