Episode 96
The Key to Leadership Success

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xq2qygjvIII

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Description

In this episode, Brandon Burns brings Jason Friesema on the show to speak with Maeve O’Neill on Dare to Lead and how crucial proper leadership can be in a professional work setting. Maeve shares insight into leadership’s most important aspects and how to properly introduce them into the work environment, While Brandon and Jason explain how these tenants have been implemented within Peaks Recovery Centers.

Talking Points

1. Introduction to Maeve
   
2. The power of leadership
   
3. Vulnerability in leadership
   
4. Vulnerability in the workforce
   
5. Daring leadership
   
6. “Less than perfect” attitude
   

Quotes

“Culture within an organization is not a coincidence, it takes intentionality, work, vulnerability, openness, honesty, and being a mess, messy, but committed and diligent leadership, and leaders.”

– Jason Friesema, Chief Clinical Officer

Episode Transcripts

Episode -96- Transcripts

hello everyone welcome back to another exciting episodes of finding Peaks my name is Brandon Burns chief executive officer for Peaks recovery center today we’re going to be talking about dare to lead and Leadership principles and how to implement those values and the dare to lead training aspects with intu organizations to make us the healthiest possible organization at the end of the day on behalf of both our patients and our employees at the end of the day and I think the dare to lead principles not just for Behavioral Health they work for any industry and any business of any type period And I think that’s the Bernay Brown promise so without further Ado I’d love to invite in our special guest Maeve O’Neill and we’ll get right into it all right well Maeve thank you so much for joining us here today and grateful to have you on uh you know not stated in the introduction you know we’ve known you for quite some time start I think going back five or six years ago you were initially our joint commission uh rep no longer with the Joint Commission in these types of things but that was kind of our introduction together and certainly over the past you know several years we’ve gotten to know each other in um in the variety of ways that you’ve been working throughout the industry uh and so uh yeah just grateful to continue to be in relationship with you I think you’ve provided a lot of strength for our programming a lot of insights and confidence at times when you know whether it’s a panic text message or a phone call you know to you you know reminding us that we’re doing a good job and that hey these things happen and um so grateful to finally we’re not just finally but to arrive at a moment where we can have a general discussion about you know dare to lead and what this means within an approach to leadership and what it means for work environments and how we might be able to just support other companies out there who maybe struggle with and you know employee retention and you know amas and all of these things that can follow when we aren’t uh sort of rumbling in the vulnerability sense of things so but before we dive in I just wanted to you know check in with you and see if there’s anything else you want to color in about your you know your your 30 years of extraordinary experience in this industry and we’ll we’ll just we’ll go from there thank you thanks for having me I’m thrilled to be in this space with you and Jason today I wish I was there on that couch I would give you guys a hug virtually but so glad to be here I’ve been watching these episodes and enjoying them so so excited to join you um I totally agree with you I think it’s I’ve been in this field my whole Adult Career in 35 years and it’s hard to find folks like you guys who are really doing a mission doing the hard work every day and yet still identify the need to keep improving you know a lot of us I think we’ve got it and we’re good and we don’t want any helper guidance and then there’s ones who really don’t know what they’re doing I guess and maybe don’t realize they don’t know what they’re doing um so I love the ones that kind of say you know we want to do better we want to improve and we need help to do that and obviously there’s a lot of uh performance Improvement or quality stuff that we can do out there you mentioned dare to Lee when I was trained in brene Brown’s work it’s I’ve been gosh in [Music] 2017 no 15 I guess um a lot of years ago it changed my every way how I view myself my world as a parent starting the work that I do so to me it’s I love bringing it to folks like you who who see the value in it and then use it to make it better for yourselves for your staff which then ultimately I think makes it better for your patients yeah yeah and I appreciate that so much you know when I you know seen it as a value set I remember being in that training and you said something like what would it be like to walk into work and this is for all of our employees watching at home on this right this is before Brandon burns the CEO so I’m a bit ignorant to leadership at the standpoint but you asked the question what would it be like to walk into work and assume that everybody’s trying their hardest and I was like no way there is no way everybody’s trying their hardest at the end of every day because you know uh it just wasn’t like my general experience and I was never like trained in leadership and you know it always I think at the time um more to that pointed um you know maybe I was just speaking for my own personal you know Viewpoint right that not everybody is coming into work passionately filled to fulfill the mission and vision statements at the end of the day and so um you know I just remember that off the top of my head and just wanted to speak to it because when you get into these leadership uh trainings and especially something like dare to lead where we’re talking about you know things that feel I don’t know hooey like a vulnerability type thing you know to people not in you know invested in brene Brown’s research and these types of things it can be hard to arrive at like is this really gonna work is this what’s going to lead to the cultural value set that keeps our employees intact keeps them thriving keeps us moving forward as a company and uh so uh so it’s challenging but for the viewers out there today we’re going to make you so certain that this is the way to go and the way to take things because not only have we adopted it you know as a not not just as a treatment program but as a leadership team but it continues to work for us and work on behalf of our employees so with that and the dare to lead text right we’re talking about something like vulnerability right and shame in these types of aspects um and uh in brene Brown’s words we need to trust to be vulnerable and we need to be vulnerable in order to build trust and so there’s sort of a dichotomous thing happening there potentially even a paradox right how do you get one before the other chicken in the egg type thing and so you know from your perspective you know help the viewers out there understand what we mean about vulnerability and how we are actually seeking to achieve vulnerability within organizations yeah so much there to talk about one I I want to say I remember your face in that meeting that we had I remember looking around the room I think Jason was believing me he was like Yeah because it was like yeah your face was like um I don’t know maybe I don’t think I’m there yet I remember being like oh wow okay we’ve got some work to do here so that I think is vulnerability right when we admit maybe I don’t have all the answers maybe I don’t know if I agree with this things in front of me I too was a young leader I was talking about early 20s when I started supervising people with no guidance or really knowledge of how to do it or how to do it well I think I was fortunate when I first got into the field I had some pretty great mentors and teachers early on so I tried to sort of just copy what I thought they did or did well and then like most of us I got into some situations where I didn’t have great teachers or leaders or mentors and was told don’t do that stop doing this do this different so I although I’m not sure what to do um so I feel like I made a lot of mistakes in my early I call it management because really it wasn’t leadership it was sort of the opposite of good leadership um and I wasn’t vulnerable I thought well I have this job and I have this job title so I must be a manager and leader uh without the skills so I’m just going to kind of wing it and in that I think you do some damage um to ourselves because we don’t know why it’s not working why is aren’t people listening why aren’t people you know liking me uh why isn’t the the program doing well and then I think uh so that’s one of those kind of admitting maybe we don’t have all the answers even if we have Education and Training or we have a certain job title I think leadership is one of those things I compare a lot to Parenting or relationship we never have it 100 right you know we are going to screw it up and probably screw it up more than we do it well and shift is hard so acknowledging that and I wish early on someone would have told me you’re the way but you’re going to need some help you’re going to need some skills and here’s where to go I remember reading every book I could head on management or leadership or whatever it was and thinking okay I get I’m not sure how to do that or that doesn’t fit for me I never quite found the right thing until I found brene Brown’s work and it was probably just a combination of follow my failings as a leader that I’d be ready to you know I was more open to it maybe it was um I just had the right time and space in my head and heart that it resonated for me it doesn’t resonate for everybody and that’s okay um but it’s the only research-based leadership program that I know that um forces you to kind of look at yourself first you know as you would say in the curriculum since you guys did it we’ve actually added eight hours into the training so now it’s a total of 24 hours I don’t remember what was still 16 at that point but there’s a lot more work sort of digging deep into our own beliefs and biases and kind of how we are and how we show up in the world so that vulnerability piece without that we don’t go anywhere we’ve got to get that vulnerability which I think really is as Renee defines it uncertainty risk and emotional exposure who wants to sign up for that right but I will say you guys did it so beautifully in our time together I I know that um there was a lot of uh people come to these things kind of thinking it’s going to be an academic exercise we quickly was oh gosh this is really a heart exercise and it’s not always easy to do that work yeah eventually we were sharing tears together right yeah I think we were eventually yeah I really you know maybe I was excited to talk to you today because we really um and I don’t want to steal any Thunder from you Brandon but like we we’ve really Incorporated a lot of the brene brown into our culture um we have a we have an office kind of a shared uh workspace for our clinical team and we literally call it the arena because it’s it’s designed to be a space where we can all be uh real and I was actually thinking of you yesterday because I had a meeting with our clinical leadership team and it went a solid two hours and it was uh rumbling for at least 90 minutes of that and uh um and to just be able to confidently lean into that like I I remember thinking at one point like this is scary it’s hard to be in that space or like as a leader I’m being vulnerable and like this is um I’m noticing myself getting defensive and I think here is why and here’s where I think um where I think that’s coming from and um there’s this exposure but out the back end of that um I think the reward gets to be like a team that’s connected and that fractures have been addressed and safety’s kind of restored to it and maybe not restored but just enhanced maybe uh to a team and um that that stems specifically from the dare to lead training that you provided us I love I love how different people bring the concepts to life and that’s a great um idea to say okay this is the arena space this is where we do the rumbling we’re not going to do it in the hallways or in everyone’s office or only in Jason’s office we’re going to do it in this space or maybe we have certain lighting or certain seating or maybe there’s you know that my heart room concept where it’s a safe place to actually be um and we walk in the room and all of a sudden maybe we’re our heads and hearts are more available there than they are where a client might walk by or where we eat lunch whatever it is I love the idea that this is the space where we do this in and um it’s sort of like that idea of create that that container of safety that when we enter this space it is going to take time and it is going to be hard and we’re going to honor that and not avoid it um but it’s going to be that sacred time and space that’s beautiful I love that yeah yeah and and thank you for bringing that in Jason because I think that’s so important and also what I find to be beautiful about Bernard Brown’s work is that she’s she’s researching this right she’s coming at it from an academic approach and when I got my CEO hat on you know three three years ago now uh in this regard I started reading all these leadership books and whether it’s you know Patrick Lencioni and the advantage for example are Jim Collins and the flywheel Concepts and all of these great leadership books that were written they have so many commonalities that match what brene brown was researching in the background and so there was this my experience was there’s this real world fundamental experience sense of vulnerability without using the word and The Real World experience of living in values without using brene brown text and so it was really cool to see somebody come out with that research approach to match all of the anecdotal evidence of what is leadership versus as you said something like management and curious in um you know in kind of your career path and maybe other text you’ve read if you’re seeing um if you’re seeing that play through as well too yes absolutely it’s so funny we just I think it was yesterday got an email from brene um a certified facilitators and you know we’ve been having the this data collected because every time we do a session like your session we collect data we collect information we sort of um you guys do a survey after and you say what we liked or we didn’t like we don’t like that part maybe didn’t seem to help us over here you know that’s really good feedback and we use that feedback and she looks at that feedback and so she’s having us answer all these questions and one of the questions is actually around like the arena is the arena a good concept should we change it what should we do so we get to go back and say yeah people like it they don’t like this so not only is she the research done it keeps evolving and it keeps growing based on our interactions with folks like you guys so I think there’s I don’t know tens of thousands of data points now that she’s looking at to say how do we improve it for the next round for the next uh curriculum updates two it’s not like it was written five ten years ago and it’s just going to be that way it’s going to keep evolving and getting better based on on the results that people are getting um so I it’s funny so she’s really inspired me obviously to be a better leader and one of the things that I’ve done is I’ve entered a doctoral program in in leadership I started it last in the fall in September and the first leadership book in the presenter of our textbook mentioned Renee and I was so excited like okay good so we’re not a completely different planet over here um so I was excited about that and it is so much of her work just takes all those previous research um by sort of I guess projects beliefs and I think just brought it to a place where the language is a little more understandable I feel like her gift is or that language and simplifying things that normal people like us it’s not have to be someone academic setting or you know a PhD in organization management it really is for everyone just to kind of take a look at ourselves and and I think she layers it with a bit of just a little more Humanity side of it that this is hard and and it is difficult and it’s not for everyone you know not everyone really should be a leader or maybe we should be but then we should take a step away if something’s going on in our lives and that’s okay too so I think it’s that awareness that constant awareness of what I love about her too is it’s it’s the Spore skill sets so you’re really clear day and day am I doing all four I’m doing these pretty good but this one I’m kind of struggling with or I got these two rocking but these two I need help with you know whereas everything else that I’ve read in leadership and all my textbooks so far or it just feels like a lot it’s it do all these things all the time or it’s just one thing like just do this just execute or just communicate or trust people but really it’s to me it’s this daily like how inventory almost of did I do these things and if not here’s where I can get better at them so to me I guess for me it makes it simple I’m a very visual person so it works for me in that regard yeah love it um and and so you know leaders in a way have to model vulnerability right if you’re going to build trust and you can’t demand vulnerability show up and be vulnerable go but I want to you know just share it because you know Jason and I and our chief operating where it was an operational meeting and we got probably you know roughly 15 staff directors Chiefs all these people we come together we talk about operations I’m rarely in that meeting but for whatever reason uh you know the good Lord invited me in in mysterious ways now I’m a part of this moment of vulnerability but we had one of our a couple staff members and for the viewers out there this is vulnerability and I can imagine in some work environments it’s like how dare you get out of this office right now for stating that so openly but these two particular staff members are really important uh staff members for our organization and all of the work they do and they had highlighted in that meeting they said look we’re right now in this moment we’re losing our passion we don’t know if we can move forward at this pace in the way that we’ve been able to and in that moment right uh you know we have developed a company culture that allows for that vulnerability to come for and to State it and it’s important that it’s stated and it’s it’s also important how we respond to it because you have everybody else like okay is this the moment where you know leadership goes to the cheap seats in the arena and doesn’t allow people to actually participate in that but for the viewers out there that is like one of the most beautiful moments of vulnerability that you get because you have something to work with right you don’t have an employee going out in the backdrop looking for another job job and those types of things are saying look I’m having an issue in this moment and let’s move through it together and literally after it was conveyed and we walked through it about five days later that was on a Thursday the following like Tuesday that employed those both those employees were coming back like re-energized ready to go thanks for listening to me and that type of thing so something that can be so challenging or for maybe some employees out there think I would never say that in front of my bosses or any leadership team or whatever I just want to you know kind of highlight that as the moment of you know vulnerability and then you know hear from you in this regard Maeve kind of what what you’re hearing from that moment is it a misstep in vulnerability where we being too vulnerable with each other is that about right size and what you want within an organization that’s operating Within These dare to lead principles well I think that example is a perfect example of one most people don’t do this and don’t want to do it because when we are vulnerable and we allow others to be vulnerable it is uncomfortable right we’re we’re not always going to hear oh we like you and we love working here and everything’s great and you know people are going to come to you and tell you uh that I don’t like that Maeve I’m not going to do that or I won’t do that or here’s what the problem is or um I’m struggling with so and so and can you know I need help with this or if you don’t do this I’m gonna leave those things are going to happen like you said those things are already happening right there we all know that the side of this conversation the gossip the the actors meeting meetings the the phone calls the things that happen they’re going to happen so to me when you create a space that people bring that to the open it takes a lot of work to get there it takes a lot of effort and ongoing effort but once you’re there you can you can know you know about it you’re aware of what you’re hearing it at some point at least if it’s if and I think somebody doesn’t want don’t want to hear it right they’d rather not hear that people have issues or concerns um and certainly work people who said well we give them a paycheck what more do they want you know we don’t really need to listen to them um they do the work that we tell them to do and that’s all we really wanted them to do we don’t want to be challenged or questioned or or certainly um asked to be more than you know there’s a most leaders do not want to be vulnerable and then they’re terrified of it I think so and that’s what brene found in in the research was that um you know we armor up as Leaders because we don’t want to be vulnerable it’s um we’re going to find fault somewhere else or we’re going to blame another area or it’s too scary to be vulnerable so we’re just not going to do it we’re just going to refuse too so I love that and I think when you do that it’s like that it’s like the having a child coming to you and asking for that safety am I going to be safe here asking this question or misbehavior you know um those of us that are parents can relate to those tests you know do we pass the test so each time it’s opportunity to kind of say yep even if I don’t get it right I’m going to try here to be vulnerable I’m going to try to to listen and and respond and get your feedback and even if the answer is no or not what they want the fact that they’ve been heard and listened to is huge right that’s how we get to safety yeah as you’re talking to me I’m reminded I this is where I flex a little bit that I actually went to a brene brown training at naropa University up in Boulder back in 2012 and it was a two-day training um I think I care I think it was uh daring greatly was her book that was out at about that time and um and she was just recording it there was like 60 of us in the room but one of the things I remember her saying is that she had like a ring that had like a layer that she could twist and she would constantly say like choose courage over Comfort something like that and um and that stuck with me because um it’s such a clever reminder um to your point that like it takes a tremendous amount of Courage um which is uncomfortable it’s like leaning into that fear it’s not courage of course is not being Fearless it’s being fearful but doing it anyway I think and um and I really think uh that that part sticks out to me because it is such a Cornerstone I think to how I approach leadership I think is like let’s have the hard conversation because the outcome is so much better than uh kind of being comfortable uh and safe while maybe the whole team is carrying a lack of safety I guess that’s that’s kind of how I view it on on our team oh I’d love that and you know as a clinician Renee does this work in Fortune 500 companies in the military in Disney and you know on Pixar all these wonderful huge corporate places which I think is great and and they’re seeing the the results and and the profits because of that Behavioral Health I don’t see how we cannot do this when when our patients come to us they’re they have to be vulnerable right they don’t get to complete treatment or or successfully stay sober regain recovery if they don’t vulnerability plays and I think it’s almost odd to to think we can get them there if we’ve not gotten there before and I I would almost venture to take the risk to say the problem in our outcomes in our field is because most of us are not there most beautiful health organizations are not vulnerable uh with their staff with their patients absolutely we do great clinical work sometimes we do amazing Transformations uh as a Behavioral Health Organization I think it’s it’s we have to find something and not if not everyone wants there to lead find something that we know we are giving to our staff that core skill set that then makes them able to do it with their patients not just out of good clinical skills or you know really hard driving work but actually kind of who they are in the space can be more transformative than any license or credential that we have I think well I think you know from a systems perspective Maeve like I don’t think I think if patients are receiving good clinical care but like there’s dysfunction at you know clinical levels or or other levels and even leadership levels it there’s no way it doesn’t trickle down like how many clients come to our program maybe you know being adult children of Alcoholics or something just super attuned to what’s going on around them if you know if they have trauma or whatever they’re gonna they’re gonna read the room and um I knew we were on the right track when we would have clients coming up to clinicians and other staff members and saying um this place is kind of weird it seems like you guys all really like each other and like being here and um it is just true uh we do I think we we hire good people that um are dedicated and work hard and are willing to embrace kind of our core values uh one of which is to live in the arena and I think um and I think that just permeates it provides an Integrity if we’re functioning well from a leadership team it’ll translate to the teams across the organization and then it just makes our client care uh have integrity I guess from top to bottom of our organization I think that’s that I think when we actually recognize that our patients are come to us with the gifts of wholeheartedness they often are the bravest people I think in in the world the fact that they you know went down the road of addiction and then seek recovery they’re so much braver than most of us in life right who kind of avoid all those things come to us and they see our functioning in our organizations I think they do and then they can see it they can smell it they can feel if they don’t recognize what it is they sense the the conflict that the the toxicity the the poor communication we always would hear from Patient Service you know you don’t communicate you guys um you know there’s no consistency between the shifts you know and and I kind of the time I remember I would kind of drive home consistency or communication but I I didn’t know at the time what they were saying was they knew we weren’t functional we’re not a happy and healthy team and they didn’t have the words for it and we weren’t acknowledging it but they were telling us you guys are not well you know so we would fix the schedule or would fix this or more snacks or but we’ve completely missed the Vogue so they were telling us was this is not a safe place for me because you guys are not okay um so I I regret that we weren’t at the time seeing those things but I think they do see it and I think if we look at our data look at our this comments they make and actually look at it we might see that oh if we address our stuff better our patients would actually do better absolutely and and I think that brings us to this kind of moments moment maybe within you know the potential you know Paradox dichotomous relationship here that we formed around trust and vulnerability we can see what it means to you know Rumble with vulnerability when an employee comes in and says hey I’m struggling at home because I just had this situation happen my loved one passed away and now I’m coming to work and I’m uninspired or I’m coming into work and I feel burnt to a crisp right these are vulnerability moments it’s not like hey I’m at home and then you’re going to go into an exhaustive list of all of the features of it you’re just bringing to light that there are two challenges and they don’t always have to be on personal and professional side it could just be challenges on the professional side and not all the ins and outs of it but just enough forward to say I’m challenged and I’m curious about resources that can support me as an individual and as a team moving forward and so leaning into that sort of trust aspect to build upon these moments right so you know brene Brown says without clear operationalized values to start from there is not thoughtfulness not having clearly defined values can lead to a paralysis and impulsive decision making a brave leader is never silent about hard things a value is a way of believing that we hold as important or believing that we hold as important it reminds us why we went into a tough situation in the first place and my experience of values because it’s so easy to highlight values and say oh yeah we’re going to live in the arena because we did the brene brown training thing go slap it on the wall and then to literally not do it and just point it to it as a nice city and be like well you’re not living in the arena right and for me values are the glue to everything that happens within an organization if we are going to expand Services it’s expanding Services under those values we cannot get into expansion mode without the values intact with that otherwise our staff will experience chance a lack of I don’t know consistency at the level of leadership and so but when we lean into our values as an effort to expand for example our mission is to save lives and we might say something about an expansion hey we’ve done really good at servicing you know 30 inpatient beds now we have this opportunity to expand the mission to 20 beds to save more lives in the process but none of this expansion is possible if we don’t lean into these value systems and to me it’s like uh you know I want to hear your feedback on it but it’s it’s like The Guiding post that allows trust to build oh they are expanding but not against you know more work for us they are doing it within the value system and we experience that oh and look and they’re adding more employees to match the expansion and this type of things and it feels like it’s a it’s a an incredible way to build trust within an organization and to keep consistency within it and without it like I don’t even know where we would be as Peaks recovery centers if we didn’t have that consistency to say no I’m speaking from the one team one shift value or I’m speaking from from the value of curiosity right now in relationship to how we’re going to expand those types of things and just hopefully you can color that in a little bit more from your experiences and your um you know your your experiences through these training opportunities yeah I think that’s so important as brene says in in the training you know no cat posters right values can’t just look good on a slogan or we borrowed them from all the other handbooks that we’ve had the values really have to be something that we’re willing to live and breathe every day right um if we have a value for um I don’t know um caring and then we treat people in an uncaring way we yell at someone or we you know get angry at someone or don’t respond to someone’s email that’s not caring well then maybe that shouldn’t be our value right it’s really got to be we’re willing to do this day in and day out and when we don’t do it to fix it to address it because we’re not always going to be perfect but when we have the four skill sets when you have vulnerability as a foundation and you’re doing it then the next thing is values we’re clear about our values and then trust we’re building trust by living the values and the guy thing is when you mess it up and you come back so I’m sorry I didn’t live that value last week whatever reason here’s how I want to get back on track with it or how can I get back on track with it I think the values really become it’s sort of like a job description or a competency base of okay we’re going to live these things and we’re going to maybe add to it maybe we’re going to get better at it and we’re going to say you know this one’s sort of we’ve outgrown this value you know it’s honesty and now we’re honest we know that let’s add something more complicated to it because we know we’re always honest now um but the worst thing you can do is certainly have values that you don’t live and people kind of mean this is not safe because you say you do these things but then we don’t and no one mentions it and we’re all kind of looking on going um geez Maeve never does that but we’re all acting like she does and then we’re recreating that the family environment where it’s not safe and you know the the old school don’t talk don’t trust don’t feel comes in um and then the gossip and the negativity and those things start to spread and people start looking for jobs people start leaving or they just don’t show up or they show up in a bad way and my new mantra recently has been and it really kind of speaks to the values pieces happy and healthy staff or ethical and compliant to provide quality and safe care and I don’t think I always knew that you had to have all three of those I thought we’re going to be quality and take care no matter how we get there just do it uh or let’s be ethically compliant but again not sure how to get there or what that looks like so we have to have all three of those and all three of those require the skill sets and the work to get there and to keep it because this doesn’t just happen just because you’ve checked off the four skill sets and you know it really is that oh man I had it yesterday but today I don’t have it and that’s where the vulnerability comes in of I need help today I I can’t go to this meeting or I can’t cover this or um if I mess this up how do I go back and say I’m sorry you know make a commitment to do better or ask the question you know did I hurt your feelings did I not live up to that value and that’s such a beautiful thing when it happens but it’s so rare that it feels uncomfortable I think initially and I imagine you guys had some some rough spots as you got the arena room Boeing and you did all those things right it’s it’s so many reasons to tap out so I’m always bad when people don’t yeah it’s hard it’s hard to I think in the beginning to see confrontation as a positive thing that it’s not somebody fighting you they’re confronting something so just softening the word a little bit there I think is imperative into Jason’s Point earlier you know integrity and brene Brown’s turn is choosing courage over Comfort it’s choosing what is right over what is fun fast or easy and choosing to practice our values rather than simply professing them is what these value structures are and when we stop professing them and we start living them it’s it’s how we nurture trust within organizations and build that out as a foundation and you you know started talking about the next steps within the you know sort of dare to lead program braving trust is next and within this model and you know brene Brown talks about in order to rumble we have two Brave trust it’s not an option and our willingness to rumble depends on it without trust it’s impossible for vulnerability to exist your team needs to trust you and know that they have that you have their backs and if they’re going to perform to the best of their abilities you need to make them feel comfortable and heard and it you know I think this takes me back to like the training episode and it’s one of those things you hear of like well that sounds like you know one of those professed statements and like how do you possibly live that and I know she has you know braving as the acronym but um she does talk about sort of the best building skill set and it’s simply just asking for help and just hopeful that you know for our viewers out there you can color in a little bit maybe around your experiences around braving as an acronym but also you know the essence of what it means for a leader to ask for help and how that builds trust within organizations yeah I love that and that’s where that vulnerability is the foundation because I have to be willing to know how do I when I’m doing my best as a leader and I’m building trust what does that look like maybe I’m listening maybe I’m asking good questions maybe I’m um getting to know my people maybe I’m taking the time to to hit the floor and go around and observe people I’m not just you know assuming I’m doing my work from a distance so I’m I’m connecting in all those areas and um once you’ve done that then you can say to your team here’s what I do well I think I do this well I’m I’m gonna always hopefully listen to you I’m going to take time for you when you’re in my office I’m not going to be on my phone I’m going to pay attention to you and if I don’t do that let me know right if I’m not doing that well um and then when you build that and you allow them to also say well here’s what I’m good at here’s where I could use some help or let me know when I’m not doing that I’ve had many examples of people I’ve had the privilege to work with who were so brave to say you know maybe I’m not good at confrontation or I’m not good at communication or um I don’t like uh disagreement how can I get better at that or maybe they they get into a disagreement with someone and they say I don’t know what I did wrong what did I what did I do account better and I just love those brave people that will come forward and say I’m struggling here so maybe you can model that um one of the things I struggle with as a leader is for that perfectionism you know and I think when I tell my team that I can get stuck in perfectionism I can become a micromanager if I’m getting into that scarcity and Fear Place you know I’m gonna we’re gonna be in trouble or our team’s not going to meet our goals you know I can get into that space so tell me when I do you know and I love when my team would say Nathan you’re doing that again you know or that doesn’t feel good or may maybe we could take that off your plate let us do those things because you’ve got enough to do over there right and we can sense your your full right so if we know each when that trust is built you just know each other I think it’s kind of like um when you have a partner that you’re connected with you know if they’re having a good day by the tone of their voice or how they walk in the room or you know their garbles up in the driveway you’re like oh it’s one of those days right what if we put the same amount of effort into our um our work Partners I there’s a great um example uh Bob Chapman is the CEO of the Barry Wilhelm wilhelmer I think it’s called um organization and he tells his story about how he used to see his staff as you know sort of parts of the the factory you know they were just things that did a job until he went to a wedding of a family member and he it hit him like oh my gosh this is my friend or my niece or whatever getting married he goes but but that’s every one of my staff members they’re each someone’s daughter niece wife sister he said I’ve not been treating them that way I’ve not loved them that way right they’ve just been part of the process that gets the job done and it changed his entire View and he’s got a couple of great books out there about just bringing love to the workplace and creating a whole organization that is based actually on loving each other loving our staff um but with braving we would have boundaries you don’t you know it’s not inappropriate and it’s scary it’s with boundaries and people are still um safe but letting people feel like they belong and they’re cared for it’s a very different environment than what they’re just to do a job definitely yeah and I think to tie up that braving trust right daring leaders work to make sure people can be themselves and feel a sense of belonging if I feel like I’m a part of something you know greater than myself or something that’s nurturing on behalf of me at the end of the day I’m far more likely to show up in the best version of myself and in honesty and I think ultimately as well too in these kind of truth-building mechanisms what I you know what I’d love for the viewers to hear out there and our Collective experiences not just in your work environments may but certainly ours here at Peaks um that when that belongingness is created um you we move away from the water cooler discussions we move away from those sideways discussions and those confess to either way that information is going to come across your desk right it’s going to come across hey I overheard somebody talking about this in the water cooler or they’re going to come right in your office and tell you and for me as a leader and I know it’s probably Jason as well and your experience as well Maeve I would rather just have them come in and talk to us and be forward with us and Frank of their situation yeah absolutely but again that’s scary and it’s hard then what do you do with it then you have to do something with it’s not like you can say okay thanks very much worse so it does create then some work you have to do um and I think I like you early on was thinking if I do this I’m just going to have a bunch of you know kind of needy people then I’m going to be loving them and vulnerable with them and there’s going to be sort of no structure or no accountability but when you do the actual program consistently what I have found is I was really wrong about that people work harder they they step up more you know when they they call me and say I need some time off to do whatever it is whereas before I probably would have been like well you know got to get this thing done now they’ll be like they want to to contribute more I think they want to work harder people don’t that’s a whole generosity right the the G engraving is generosity people are doing the best they can and when they are safe and they are feeling like they’re part of this they’re going to work harder for you it’s not going to become a loosey-goosey stays home all the time and eats some you know cookies on the couch everyone wants to do a good job so it’s it’s been fascinating how wrong I was about it thinking everyone’s just going to take advantage of me because I’m being vulnerable at night you know I’m supposed to be tough and hard and um but the opposite actually happens when people feel loved and cared for they actually perform better yeah and and vulnerability and Leadership too for the viewers out there and anybody like thinking this is not going to be effective vulnerability and Leadership is something like hey I just I brought you into the office today just to have a conversation because it doesn’t feel like you’re showing up in the best version of yourself it doesn’t feel like you are performing at the level that I know you have the skill sets to do so so like what is going on right so it it stops the punitive consequential process of calling somebody out but inviting them into the process and through that vulnerability we get a lot further in the discussion than we would if we came in with an intensity or HRS in the room and that type of thing and of course HR and all these things are going to inevitably have to play their uncomfortable roles within any organizations but at the end of the day I think that we do Less HR work when we have more vulnerability and involvement and that trust is established and that belongingness as an invite brings people forward so that we reduce that potential at the end of the day yeah but what I think as Bernay says too is when you build this sort of Workforce of people who are vulnerable and daring and they’re a little bit dangerous too because they’re not going to tolerate a toxic person that comes in you may have experienced that as you kind of get this healthy team someone comes in and tries to do the usual gossip negativity and people will just like no we don’t do that here or that’s not who we are and that gets a little bit uncomfortable or people will be like I’m not working here like you know I’ve worked at places where maybe I see what you’re doing and I get it but maybe the bigger organization or other parts of the place are not safe so I’m out I’m not going to do I need what you’re talking about but it’s not enough it’s not widespread enough or it’s not consistent enough it’s only you’re the only one here that talks this way if it’s not everyone it does make it difficult so people will choose to leave because they know that’s what they need and deserve as well and another great example out in the in the business world is Claude silver she’s one of my my Idols she’s the chief heart officer at vaynermedia and she’s a traditional HR person but really her job is just to take care of people and I had a discussion with their ones like well how do you handle when people you know it’s not a fit or they don’t do well and so we just had that conversation like you just said we talk about are you okay and if not I help them find another job I help them find where they’re going to be themselves and be special you know you don’t just send them out the door and say goodbye you take care of people even when they’re leaving you know there’s ways to do this work that still honors the humanity in all of us and I think we’ve all sided that a bit yeah absolutely uh dignity on all levels whether it’s you know leadership or you know the an employee or whatever our titles are at the end of the day you know we’re people and uh having integrity and giving people dignity even in the worst situations where an employee’s being let go and that type of thing I think is imperative because they’re now in a position to leave indeed reviews or you know whatever on the other side of this and you want them to walk away with something like yeah that was tough that was difficult I didn’t like the outcome but damn it I still feel like they cared uh so I you know that that invites us into this learning to rise concept on behalf of leadership and I think that uh both Jason and I uh know what it’s like to uh stumble within organization working at Peaks facing hurt um you know especially in during the pandemic period you know we rolled through a lot of volatility uh between directors and relationships and all that that was taking place and brene Brown says Darian leaders rise from getting up from their Falls overcoming their mistakes and facing hurt in a way that brings more wisdom and wholeheartedness into their lives um and so you know we’ve been going through some things at Peaks variety of different things the tribes attacked on multiple fronts but we’re dealing with one of the massive insurers right now and we’re in tension and it’s leading to a variety of different things and for all the hard experiences I’ve been through this was a new one for me and you know I kind of came into the team this week and you know kind of apologize because just recognizing vulnerably that I’ve been living in fear for like the past month as a leader within the organization because this is a new do hard landing and I I had no you know preparation for this moment I thought all past moments would prepare me for this moment and it didn’t and I arrived at probably you know vulnerably speaking one of the worst moments for myself because I was acting out of fear right away rather than acting with like okay let’s get the information right let’s make sure all the details in place and then we’ll approach it in this sort of way and it is uh an energy that came at a cost to the other leaders in that regard and they did a wonderful job about picking up you know that fear and running with it within an optimistic lens but you know for the sake of resiliency how can you know through your lens Maeve how do we prepare for hard Landings uh in this regard what a great question well brene teaches us in in the in the curriculum that most of the world doesn’t operate this way you know what I mean you’re probably not going to find an insurance company that’s going to be vulnerable with you and and you know live wholeheartedly it’s maybe not going to happen that way maybe down the road they will but most of our landscape doesn’t work this recognizing that is important because we we sort of in your little bubble of Peaks you probably get used to it and this is how we operate then someone oh wait the world’s not like this right the reality kind of slaps you in the face so I think it’s a matter of this is where I like to a piece of the resilience of the the mind and body and spirit that do we have practices it might be different for each person for me it’s yoga and meditation and in certain music that I love and my puppy and my kids regulating my heart when I hug them you know like whatever practices we have to to be prepared when we walk into those Arenas that are not safe that are not you know kind of on the same page that we practice those things whether it’s um nature or working out or whatever it is that you do building up recognize I’m going to need this I got to fill up like my backpack of these things um and then recognize okay I’m in a regulated space and I can and then if your team is comfortable it sounds like what they were with you which is say hey you don’t seem like you’re yourself or you’re you know you’ve done those things maybe you haven’t hiked in a while you’ve not worked out you’ve not done the things that we know kind of fill you up um then that’s a great place so yep I need to take some time and that’s going to model the whole thing is oh I need to I need to take the afternoon off or someone else needs to cover for me but I think that until we get to a place where this movement and sort of spread a little wider um scarcity is going to come in fear is going to come in and we have to prep for it um you know my son is a is a football player and he’s such a great example to me of a lot of times in this work we just sort of do it we just show up and we do the work where I see him in his football team like they practice and they watch film and they do these drills and it’s like such an intense thing and they prepare more for a football game than work that I do in saving people’s lives it’s fast we just don’t do enough prep work and practice practice and problem solving and then debriefing it okay how do we do okay we did good all right oh Maeve you missed that you missed that thing or you said the wrong thing on that call or let’s kind of break it down and what that builds is this ability I think to be resilient and to know we’re going to come back from it we’re going to be okay and we’re going to do it together as a team like I just love that because I was not a sports person so I love that that’s an example for me yeah absolutely and I think that you know brene to color in a little bit more about the brene brown side of it as well too that you know leaders must pay attention to the stories we tell ourselves and when we don’t own our stories of failures setbacks and hurt you know they own us at the end of the day and I think that’s a significant contribution to how to prepare for hard Landings that hard Landings are going to be failures at times they are going to be shortcomings they are going to be hindsight moments of like dang it I see a year ago where I could have fixed this and now it’s on my plate and God I messed up and am I a good leader anymore in those types of things and um I I think for the viewers out there if anything I want them to hear that leadership is given so much more back than just having to manage a situation it allows for leaders to have Grace for the decisions they make and the opportunities in front of them and to really know that it’s okay at times to miss the mark and to not be perfect from concepts of perfectionism and those types of things oh yeah and I think it’s those failure moments I mean as a clinician knows it’s those failure stories that are actually some of our best stories right if we don’t fail whenever we don’t get better um and I think as as a as a treatment World we’ve gotten better at reframing failure or recurrence of substance use is not a failure but as a okay let’s let’s regroup let’s see what you learn what did you what would you do different it actually makes us stronger when we fail especially when we fail with the rising piece that we come back and we say you know we reckon with it what did I do what do I think what did I feel what did I did I forget to do my yoga or meditation did I forget to um kind of own this piece um so I think it’s really cool when we can recognize a failure and you’ve probably all had those leaders who you know are gonna you know maybe chastise you or you’re going to be in trouble or reprimand you or the ones that are going to put their arms around you and say hey you did one you did your best or at least you you tried and we know you’re going to get better next time like it’s okay right I think it’s with the whole parenting thing as well our kids have to know that it’s okay to fall no one is perfect um and in this work we do is certainly not perfect so I think it’s almost like you look forward to it because it gets us better it gets improved we don’t always improve just what we’re you know rock and rolling doing good with successes yeah and I also think it’s a great opportunity to highlight for you know employees as well too where it’s appropriate that like I make mistakes too these thing events like this burn me to a crisp things like this have me losing passion at times um and also you know anchoring into that concept of resiliency allows us to move forward and learn from it and talk about it but you know in kind of moving through this you know that aspect of finding the truth right and I’m grateful that I could bring up this you know insurance thing because you know to me at Peak sometimes as the CEO I feel like hey we got a box branded out because sometimes he’s going to deliver something that’s too intense and rightfully so sometimes I’ll be on a tangent and I can start with like hey I just want to talk about how the day is going all of a sudden I’m talking about insurance problems right and that’s not always healthy for an organization but you know brene Brown in this context has this beautiful notion that clear is kind and unclear is unkind and she says you know clear is kind difficult or awkward conversations are less difficult if if you approach them with empathy and kindness be clear on what outcomes you expect and what delivery looks like when you lead people you owe them the truth and so in talking about that insurance stuff and I’m keeping it broad you know Strokes here because we’re delivering information into the organization as is needed at this time but it feels like no this is it we’ve built the arena we’ve built the tribal culture we built the value systems I should just be able to vomit in a sense like what is going on in transparency but there is also a delicacy to it as well too and something that I’m always finding to be challenged because I take some of our employees to be friends not necessarily outside of work but in relationship but what I found at the end of the day is just because it’s perceived that way doesn’t mean it’s actually true or that they’re going to be able to hear the things that are coming in so how do we navigate you know as Leaders this clear as kind and unclear is unkind without breaking the whole systems we sought to set up in the first place oh that’s such a great question because it’s it’s funny all of the concepts vulnerability you know um values it can feel like it means like all or nothing but I do believe that vulnerability doesn’t mean I am always that way with everyone you know in all situations it might mean I strive to be vulnerable but certain people I might be less vulnerable with for their own good for my own good for whatever situation and same thing with Clarity Clarity doesn’t mean everyone gets to know everything all the time Clarity means we consider the the need to know and who needs to know what and when knowing our job is to keep the safety and keep people feeling like they have a part in it but Clarity might be hey we’ve got this insurance thing going on it’s stressing me out a bit so if you if you notice me not being you know my best let me know and I’ll let you guys know as we go or I’d love to tell you guys everything but if you don’t want to know that’s okay too let me know you don’t want me to talk about it anymore you know that’s to me that’s the clarity is communicating you know the options or it might be the clarity is this is going on it’s a lot you guys have enough going on so I’m not going to burden you with it but when and if it’s time and you want to know that I’m happy to do it right so the clarity is sort of just here’s the State of Affairs there’s no secrets there’s no um dishonesty hopefully it’s not like oh yeah we’re good and fine anymore you know whatever’s going on so to me Clarity is just knowing we’re doing what’s best for everyone involved all the time so it’s Clarity of mind and heart not always information I think that’s that’s how I think of it like I never want to feel like I’m being dishonest or or keeping things from people they might want to know absolutely and it you know kind of the tail end of the finding the you know true thing and we’ll dive into kind of the last concept here less than perfect but I think this is such a tremendous quote from benay Brown that leaders must either invest a reasonable amount of time attending to fears and feelings or squander an unreasonable amount of time trying to manage ineffective and unproductive behaviors and I think that is just filled with truth with a capital T at the end of the day and work organizations and these types of things if we don’t lean into the fears and feelings that are going on behalf of our employees we’re going to spend an insufferable amount of time around the water cooler discussions and the displacement and the distractions and high turnover of employees and retention issues and as Jason was talking about earlier that filtering down to you know the patients and them going I see what’s going on here this place is ineffective it’s disruptive and I’m not receiving the care was promised on the front end of treatment and so before dining in the less than perfect that is I think one of many inspirational quotes that she has but a really effective and important one and I would just love to hear your point of view on that quote so true and I look back and think all the time I did waste of time and energy and money wasted on either you know complaining about something or or deciding you know kind of who who’s who was to blame or who the problem is or getting stuck in it’s because really generally it’s a shame resilience curriculum right shame is the problem we’re trying to fix with this because shame does a lot of harm and we don’t talk about it enough we don’t mention it so shame drives a lot of bad leadership and a lot of bad behaviors just in life in general I think so for me it means um I’m going to invest the time ahead to get to know people to understand them to see where they’re at in this skill set build the skill set with them manage all that uncomfortability and all that conversation and I I would love it if you could almost capture you know if you do capture your your turnover or your burnout rate or your AMA rate or your you know um uh patients suing your staff suing you because that happens right things happen would not have Peak so far but yeah that’s the reality that you know consequences when we don’t do this work well um and you mentioned like the Google reviews or people will go out and talk bad about you the reputational damage that gets done when we don’t take that time so the dollar amount is hard to come by and I’m in the ethics and compliance space where we our goal is to prevent problems uh not to wait till they happen so it’s hard to show the the return on that investment if we prevent the problem from happening and uh dare to lead to me as a preventative curriculum we’re going to prevent staff from burning out prevent them from from leaving or from leaving in a bad way uh that does damage to them or us or as an is as a field I think that’s really important so if we can take the time invest the time and I even like to carve it out like on my calendar do I have time where I’m practicing dare to lead and if I have a team I’m working with I’m going to actually do it every week with them we’re going to spend 30 minutes going through their delete at my last place at my whole team through that it took 12 months we did a half hour every um week so two hours a month we got through it in 12 months they’re all dare to lead trained and we just want to just chip away at it and chip away at it that’s such a better investment and then sort of you know hustling or trying to pick up or you know fix all the problems um so I don’t feel like I chase problems anymore I’m I’m part of the solution and contributing to the solution which feels a lot better use of time and energy well if I could add to that too I just this this point I think is so key and it can’t be faked right like if you’re going to attend to the fears and feelings uh of anybody it can’t be half-hearted it has to be it has to have integrity to it and it’s a tricky thing and um nurturing and fostering our own value in in hearing what our what our staff and and eventually what our clients and what other people want to say um it’s just important that they care is genuine and that we really are uh wanting to lean in in that way um you know I think uh because any any Gap in that I think actually erodes uh erodes trust and again this is clear as kind right like that’s that’s kind of the the entire topic under this finding the truth which is such a a key element that I genuinely want to be attending to your your concerns um just out of my own integrity and out of my own care and concern for you yeah I think yeah you absolutely and you can’t you can’t fake this stuff which is why most people don’t do it it’s really hard to do it and do it intentionally or to do it consistently because it’s a lot of work it really is a lot of work and you know I came from a family with addiction and mental health issues so I knew when I had a family and kid that wanted to do it differently and better but it took me 10 or 20 more years to realize I should put the same energy into my workplace I thought work was different I thought a job was that something you just did and because you got the training or the education or you got the you know the title you just go do it but it takes just as much energy day in and day out to be who you want to be and contribute in a way that is true to all of this work but yeah it’s never easy and I think there’s days where I feel like okay what’s the right thing to say here what’s