John: Hi, this is Doctor John Dacey with my weekly podcast, New Solutions to the Anxiety Epidemic. Today, I have a friend of mine, James, who’s going to be talking to us about his own situation and his own familiarity with anxiety. James, how are you?

James: I’m doing alright, how are you?

John: Good, thank you. I wonder if you could tell us a little something about yourself before we get started.

James: Well, I am currently a junior in high school. I’m 17.

John: How are you finding taking courses online?

James: Online? It’s presented its own set of challenges. I wouldn’t say it’s better or worse than regular school but, I think there’s less work but it’s a different kind of material. It feels a little bit less meaningful.

John: Yeah, I can understand that. People say that there’s such a thing as Zoom exhaustion. After you’ve spent a certain amount of time on Zoom that it’s much more tiring than sitting there and talking to somebody.

James: Yeah, I don’t do too many Zoom calls because of the way the school has set it up for us but I get that.

John: Today, what I would like to do is go over 7 of the 8 types of anxiety that there are and have you tell me, do you think that you have a condition in that area, the anxiety syndrome, and we’ll talk a little bit about if you’ve discovered anything that’s helped with you. Is that ok?

James: Sounds good.

John: I’m going to skip the first one which is called simple phobias because everybody has them, agoraphobia, afraid of falling from heights, things like that. We’ll start with probably the most common one which is social anxiety. Social anxiety is things like fear of speaking in public, feeling of not wanting to go to parties, that sort of thing. Do you think you’re bothered by any of that?

James: Not generally. Sometimes I’ll have a little bit in large groups but generally speaking, that’s not something that I tend to experience.

John: I remember some years ago watching you sing by yourself in front of probably 300 people in the audience and you seemed to be very calm about the whole thing and very confident. Is that typically the case?

James: Yeah that tends to be the case.

John: And you’ve been in some theater things where if you were going to have social anxiety, that’s where you’d have it.

James: Yeah, I’ve been doing theater from a very young age so it’s something that I’ve got pretty used to.

John: That’s great. Separation anxiety usually bothers younger people but sometimes older people. Separation anxiety is when you feel like if you’re not around a person who is very powerful, that knows how to take care of you, that you’re in trouble. Did you have any trouble starting school, for example leaving your mother?

James: No, I don’t think I did.

John: I don’t think you did either. The next one is called generalized anxiety. Just a general nervous feeling at least half of the time.

James: Yeah, that’s the one that I definitely have.

John: That usually comes about from a bunch of experiences that didn’t go so well for you, or  that you feel like they didn’t go so well for you, and you become sort of nervous, on the lookout and what we call “hypervigilant.” Do you know what I mean when I say hypervigilant?

James: Yeah, exactly.

John: What about that does that seem like something that you’ve been dealing with?

James: Yeah I think it’s something that I definitely have. It’s something I was diagnosed with and it’s something I’m on medication for.

John: Oh ok. When you talk to your therapist who’s the one who did the diagnosis I suppose, what suggestions do they make about why you have this? Do you have any guess as to why you’re generally anxious?

James: There’s a history of anxiety in my family.

John: So, you think it might be genetic?

James: I think genetics certainly has a large role in it.

John: We say that everything is biopsychosocial in my field so the biological part would be genetics. Can you think of anything that psychologically might have oriented you toward that? From your experiences, for example.

James: Yeah, I think some of it’s genetic and some of it’s from my experiences. Some of it from when I was younger, but it’s a combination of things that have added up to this.

John: What is your position in the family?

James: I’m the youngest.

John: Do you think that might have anything to do with it?

James: Being the youngest? I think there’s a certain level of insecurity about being young and having to prove yourself so I’m sure that played a role.

John: Yeah, that’s absolutely true. Your siblings are pretty smart if I remember. They are smart people.

James: They are. They’re quite intelligent.

John: But as I think you know, I think you’re very smart and I’m inviting you to be in a group of mine called “Spirituality and Science.” It’s almost all adults, older adults for that matter but you’re probably the youngest person in the group but you seem to do very well supporting yourself.

James: Well thank you.

John: Do you feel nervous when you’re in that group?

James: No, it’s a very relaxed environment.

John. Oh, that’s great. Now that’s the first four and they tend to be less serious so let’s look at the next ones. Agoraphobia is fear of being away from home because of lack of control. Are you bothered by that at all? Do you feel nervous when you’re about to go on a trip or something like that?

James: No.

John: Ok so being out of the house or being away from the home is not a problem.

James: No.

John: The next one is called panic attacks. Those are feelings of fearfulness that seem to come from nowhere. They don’t seem to be related to anything. All of a sudden you start to feel really nervous. How about that one?

James: Yeah that’s one that I experience.

John: I’m going to guess that you probably think that’s genetic also.

James: I don’t know if it’s genetic. It’s not something that I experienced when I was younger. It really didn’t come up until fairly recently, actually.

John: How recently, James?

James: About a year or two ago is when it first started and then it’s ramped up in the past year or so.

John: When you say started, what was the first one like?

James: The first one I think was actually in my chemistry class and it was just like I was doing my work. The whole room was silent and I was just doing my work and then all of a sudden, something changed and I’m not 100% sure what it was but something shifted and it was like I couldn’t breathe, my chest was compressing, shaking. It was a terrifying experience.

John: That’s exactly how everybody describes it. We can be very sure you had a panic attack because that’s exactly what it sounds like. And it seems to come out of nowhere am I right?

James: Yeah.

John: Has anybody ever told you that it seems to be, but it actually isn’t? When I talked to my clients about panic attacks, I make an analogy to a bunch of cowboys out with a heard of cattle and if the heard of cattle starts to get nervous and one or two of them start to stand up, the cowboys have to start whistling and singing to calm them back down. Because if they all get up and going, then the next thing you know, you got a stampede on your hands and there’s nothing you can do except follow along. That’s sort of an analogy to what a panic attack is described as. I’ve had a couple myself, only about two, and it’s the weirdest thing, it seems to come out of nowhere but it really doesn’t. And what we tell people is, “you’ve got to try and be aware of your subconscious.” And that’s a really hard thing to do especially when the subconscious is saying, “something scary is about to happen” because you try to deny it. Nobody wants to be scared out of their minds. It’s a very unpleasant feeling and that’s what a panic attack is like. Instead of saying, “I think I’m beginning to feel the beginnings of a panic attack” you try and avoid it and it makes it worse. Does that sound right?

James: Yeah.

John: have you had any success with stopping them?

James: Yeah I think I have.
John: As I might say, “cutting them off at the pass.” Do you know what I mean?

James: Yeah. It’s something that’s really hard to do.

John: It is really hard to do. The biggest thing that’s hard about it is that you don’t want to be thinking about this. Am I right?

James: Exactly. It’s something that I’ve had a lot of, so I’ve had to get pretty good at preventing them, cutting them off before they get to that point and recovering after them which is also something that’s I’ve struggled with because they’re pretty debilitating. They’re hard to come back from.

John: One of the things that I’ve heard is that they’re especially hard for males because males are supposed to be strong and not give in to something like this. Am I right?

James: Yeah, I think there’s some pressure.

John: When you’re having a panic attack, do you tell all your friends around you that you’re having one?

James: Generally, no.

John: Do you feel a little bit ashamed of it?

James: Yeah, I mean, it’s not something that I want to be experiencing.

John: Yeah of course not. Of course, you don’t. And of course, with the stereotype that we have that men are so brave and tough, it’s not the image that we want to give to ourselves. “I can’t talk to you right now because I’m having a panic attack.” But, you know, that’s how it is. Okay, there’s only two more. OCD, which is obsessive-compulsive disorder.

James: I think I have a little bit of that.

John: What’s your evidence?

James: I find myself having to do things a certain number of times. It’s pretty manageable and it’s not super severe, but there are certain things where like, I have to flip a coin in my hand a certain number of times or whatever so it’s even on both sides.

John: James, my understanding of OCD, or obsessive-compulsive disorder, is that it is not necessarily coming from a learned experience but from another part of your brain called the amygdala and that’s it’s definitely genetic. Do you have anybody else in your family, you don’t have to say who, but do you have anybody else in your family that has trouble with this?

James: Yeah, definitely.

John: Would that be your father or your mother?

James: I believe it’s my mother’s side.

John: And anybody else in your family?

James: Yeah, some siblings.

John: Ok, well dealing with that is a tough one and what you have to do is basically reprogram your amygdala, is what we say about it and it means when you got to go back in the house or you got to do somethings repeatedly because they make you feel safe, you know that old phrase, “don’t step on a crack, you’ll break your mother’s back,” do you remember that?

James: Yeah

John: That sort of OCD-ish because it means that if you don’t step on a crack, then your mother’s back won’t be broken. But if you do step on a crack, your mother’s back will probably not be broken. It just makes you feel a little bit better that you can do something about which you almost really have no control. Am I right?

James: Right.

John: Okay, James, one more. Post-traumatic stress disorder. You’re pretty young for this. It’s usually soldiers and people who have been in battle or firemen who have seen burnt up bodies. Do you think you have anything in PTSD?

James: I don’t think so.

John: Well, James, I appreciate very much you talking to me about this. You’re very brave and I think also one of the things it does is it shows other males that it’s OK to talk about some of this stuff and in fact, it’s really necessary to talk about it, even if you don’t feel like it. Would you agree with that?

James: Yeah, 100%.

John: Okay, James. Thanks a million for participating today, I appreciate it.