Episode 69- In Support of the Undocumented
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SUMMARY KEYWORDS

firearm, undocumented, second amendment, new jersey, guns, inoperable, gun, state, gun laws, anti, attorneys fees, rights, gun rights, politicians, law, serial numbers, assault, registered, incentive, rendered

SPEAKERS

Evan Nappen, Speaker 3

Evan Nappen 00:19

Hello, this is Evan Nappen, L2AL to everyone, and welcome to Gun Lawyer. Today on Gun Lawyer, I want to talk to you about something that you know at first, you might not agree with me, but I’m going to ask you to hear me out on the whole thing. I am going to lay out a lot of reasons here, and I think in the end, I’m going to get you to see it the way I see it. And if not, then it’s something to debate. But I want to talk to you today about why you should welcome the undocumented. Now, I understand, there’s a lot of controversy about the undocumented. But I’m going to tell you right now, the undocumented, contrary to popular belief, contrary to the media, they do not increase crime. Okay, there’s no correlation between undocumented and crime. It’s just ridiculous. The media perpetrates this myth because they are, frankly, prejudiced against the documented. I really feel we should stand up for the undocumented not fall for the media. The media likes to say that the undocumented end up contributing to Narco traffic. It has nothing to do with narcotics trafficking. Narcotics trafficking is going to take place, whether there are undocumented or not, and this is what we are seeing.

Evan Nappen 01:56

Again, to smear the undocumented and to put them in this category is unfair and wrong. Let me tell you what else. The undocumented do not carry disease. The media likes to play up that the undocumented are somehow bringing disease. They like to play up undocumented as a disease. They put it into the public health arena and try to go after the undocumented, claiming this spread of disease that comes from the undocumented. The undocumented themselves are categorized as a disease and made into a public health crisis. Let me just be clear, the undocumented are not to be feared. They are not to be feared. Yet the fear mongering continues. The undocumented is put into the mainstream media to scare us and to get the general public worried and afraid. It is completely wrong and unnecessary.

Evan Nappen 03:11

Frankly, the undocumented need to be protected from those that prey on them. There are many predators out there. There are predators out there that prey on the undocumented, and they use the undocumented for their own gain. They use them politically. The undocumented are used to try to gain political favor. They’re attacked by politicians to bolster their political position. Yet, it’s all based on nonsense. There is no basis for it, but it doesn’t matter. They use the undocumented for an emotional appeal to the uneducated and uninformed public. They don’t recognize that there’s benefits from the Page – 2 – of 7

undocumented. The undocumented can provide a lower cost to consumers. Yeah, there’s lower costs. When you look at what the undocumented do, it creates more competition. It creates an alternate source for the economic advantage that the undocumented can give even us as an individual. This is often overlooked and underrated.

Evan Nappen 04:41

Finally, and most importantly, we are seeing that the government cannot control the undocumented. We see them try and fail, and it is just a crisis to others. Whereas those that are documented get threatened by the government actions as they attempt to go after the undocumented. So, of course, what I am talking about are undocumented firearms. I think undocumented firearms are a lot better than calling them ghost guns. Instead, we have undocumented guns. If you think about the tremendous advantage of all the undocumented guns that are out there, then you start to see why it’s so important.

Evan Nappen 05:44

If you think about it, the media will not call ghost guns, undocumented guns. I think in the reverse, I really want to see undocumented individuals, people, see if the media will one day call them ghost immigrants. Do you think ghost immigrants is going to fly as we have all these ghost immigrants coming in? If you think about it, they are undocumented and that makes them ghost immigrants. We can’t track them. We don’t know where they are. We don’t know who they are. We didn’t know anything about them. Well, somehow, that entire political issue is out there for undocumented immigrants, but if you think about it in terms of firearms, you see that the very arguments that they try to use really apply even better to guns.

Evan Nappen 06:43

Undocumented guns are unregistered guns, and unregistered guns continue a freedom that we have. They continue to be an insurance policy for liberty, and unregistered guns, homemade guns, have been part of America since before we became a country. So, talk about a tradition. There’s a tremendous tradition in our country of guns not being registered and not being documented. It’s an insurance policy for our liberty and for our freedom. If we really want to get into the truest meaning of the Second Amendment, it’s a check on tyranny. What better way to be a check on tyranny than to have undocumented guns that can’t be traced and confiscated by tyrants.

Evan Nappen 07:42

See, that’s how we have to adjust our thinking because the media is on a campaign to again disparage and to make so-called ghost guns a pejorative. When in reality, we’re talking about guns that represent the purest form of freedom. Now, there have been states, including New Jersey, which have passed laws prohibiting the possession of guns without serial numbers. Yet, serial numbers were not even required until the 60s, and there are plenty of firearms manufactured by mainstream manufacturers, .22s and shotguns, that were not required to have serial numbers. They are out there, and yet, possessing them in New Jersey is a felony level offense. When you want to make a gun just for yourself, your own home build, that is a direct correlation to the Second Amendment. The right to keep and bear arms is the right to have your own arm that you made. Think about it.

Evan Nappen 08:55 Page – 3 – of 7

Yet, I have a number of cases where the government came into a person’s home, seized firearms that were in their home, and then charged the person because a firearm in their home did not have a serial number. I am not talking about a serial number that was on it and was removed. I am talking about a gun that never had one because it was built by the individual who kept it and maintained it in their own home. What could be more pure of an expression of the right to keep and bear arms than possessing a firearm that you built from scratch for yourself? Since when does the Second Amendment require that you buy a gun from some other maker, that the gun you have has to be made by a major manufacturer that puts serial numbers on it.

Evan Nappen 09:53

That’s contrary to the very spirit and message of the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment is about our individual right, our individual right to keep and bear arms, including an arm that we made for ourselves, and to be kept by ourselves. This is why it is not prohibited under federal law to do this. Now, of course, the current administration wants to change that. They want to make it so that it is prohibited and that would, of course, violate the Second Amendment. But they are not concerned with that at all. As I’m sure you observed by their actions, not by their words. The way you can immediately tell that a politician of some sort is after your gun rights and after your guns and wants to take your property and take your rights, you can instantly tell is when they say, well, I support the Second Amendment but . . . As soon as you hear that, you know what they’re about. There is no “but” to I support the Second Amendment. It doesn’t exist.

Evan Nappen 11:08

As soon as you hear it, you know that the first thing they just said, is an absolute lie. I have seen it, and I’m sure you have seen some of the most anti-gun politicians to ever walk the planet claim – oh, well, I’m in favor of the Second Amendment. But of course, we have to control ghost guns and assault firearms and Saturday night specials and any gun over 12 inches and any gun under 12 inches and any gun with a brace and not with a brace and concealable or not concealable, on and on and on and on. But I support Second Amendment. Yeah, of course they don’t. They don’t support it, and it’s just death by 1,000 cuts for our rights. It’s the salami tactic of one slice at a time. It’s the boiling of the frog. They slowly turn up the heat until the frog does not realize that it’s too late. Whatever analogy you want to use, that’s what they’re doing to us.

Evan Nappen 12:11

And you’ve got to recognize it and stop it before it gets worse and worse and worse. It is already at a point, a tipping point, where the anti-gun dream of eliminating the Second Amendment by way of all these laws and rules and regs can happen. They are doing it in New Jersey, their experimental state. That’s where they test it out. This new batch of bills that’s back in the arena, even though they got canned in the last section, they are all going to be there again. This is the one to put it over the top and to make it so that individuals find it virtually impossible to lawfully possess firearms, continue to possess firearms, and not have their rights taken from them by the government. This is the plan, and you have to look ahead and see it and recognize it. So, those undocumented guns can become very important when dealing with a future that may mean the end of our rights. And ultimately, history demonstrates it. So, be aware, and make sure you support the undocumented. It’s important. Don’t fall for the media Page – 4 – of 7

propaganda. When we come back, we are going to talk about some other things that I think you’ll find very interesting.

Speaker 3 13:58

For over 30 years, Attorney Evan Nappen has seen what rotten gun laws do to good people. That’s why he’s dedicated his life to fighting for the rights of America’s gun owners. A fearsome courtroom litigator fighting for rights, justice, and freedom. An unrelenting gun rights spokesman tearing away at anti-gun propaganda to expose the truth. Author of six best-selling books on gun rights, including Nappen on Gun Law, a bright orange gun law Bible that sits atop the desk of virtually every lawyer, police chief, firearms dealer, and savvy gun owner. That’s what made Evan Nappen America’s Gun Lawyer. Gun laws are designed to make you a criminal. Don’t become the innocent victim of a vicious anti-gun legal system. This is the guy you want on your side. Keep his name and number in your wallet and hope you never have to use it. But if you live, work, or travel with a firearm, the deck is already stacked against you. You can find him on the web at EvanNappen.com. or follow the link on the Gun Lawyer resource page. Evan Nappen – America’s Gun Lawyer.

Speaker 3 15:13

You’re listening to Gun Lawyer with Attorney Evan Nappen. Available wherever you get your favorite podcast.

Evan Nappen 15:28

So, I want to thank all my listeners as you are what makes this show great. And I am so thankful to be able to have a great platform here to convey to you important information and things that you need to know when dealing particularly with our Second Amendment rights. Make sure you subscribe and tell your friends to listen and subscribe. One of the things I love a lot is getting the letters, communications from my listeners. I have a couple letters here that I would like to share with you, and I think you’ll appreciate it as well. This is from Justin, and Justin says regarding firearm lawsuits.

Evan Nappen 16:16

Hi, Evan, I’m an avid listener to your podcast. Thank you for your work on gun rights. My question is this. Our legislators in New Jersey are constantly attacking the little pieces of the Second Amendment we have left in the state on the payer’s dime. Guess he meant taxpayers. It’s great to see our Second Amendment associations fighting back with lawsuits as well. Is there a way not only to sue for gun rights, but also to sue for reimbursement of taxpayer dollars for the amount of money state lawmakers have spent pushing anti-gun laws that are found unconstitutional in the future? I feel this could be a deterrent for more laws, in a similar way, Murphy, wants to add expenses through licensing and training expenses for New Jersey gun owners. I hope to hear from you on this. Again, thank you! Regards, Justin.

Evan Nappen 17:16

So, I get what Justin is saying. He wants to know, is there essentially a way of getting money back as these politicians enact these laws that are blatantly unconstitutional and are found to be unconstitutional? Is there an economic incentive here? That could (a) be a disincentive for politicians to pass anti-gun laws and an incentive to challenge arguably, challenge anti-gun laws? The answer to that Page – 5 – of 7

is yes, there can be. In fact, to a certain degree, there is, and it’s getting bigger and better and stronger every day. Particularly now, as we’re heading into the decision that should come down on the New York State Rifle and Pistol versus Bruen case. The Supreme Court will, by our guess, by June release its opinion. I’m confident we’re going to win, and it’s question by how much are we going to win. As it gets more and more established about the Second Amendment, and its protection and guarantee of our rights, the more we can fit that into a civil rights issue. Then you can get attorney’s fees on the civil rights challenges, and therefore, there is more incentive for lawyers to sue. Already this has been done on a number of these cases.

Evan Nappen 18:57

The ability to get fees really increase the incentive to bring the litigation to take down the anti-gun laws. So, economics is an incentive, folks. We live in a capitalist society, and we need to face facts. The economic incentive, as it gets stronger and stronger when it comes to challenging anti-gun laws that violate the constitution, will be better. Until you have so many of these lawsuits out there that are challenging these horrible anti-gun laws and costing the state lots and lots of money. Eventually, you get them to change their ways. Now, of course, the downside is the state is tax dollars and tax dollars come from the citizens. The citizens end up paying for the unconstitutional acts that are passed and created by the politicians themselves. But ultimately, it’s going to come back on these politicians that have cost the taxpayers a lot of money when they should have known better. And see, that’s really the point.

Evan Nappen 20:15

We are seeing proposals of anti-gun laws that are blatant violations of the law without even having any argument. When you see a law proposed by Murphy, Governor Murphy, pushing in New Jersey that your firearms have to be locked up within your home. Well, that is blatantly a contradiction to Heller which said, that’s unconstitutional. But why should that stop an anti-gun zealot? Right. So, they will still pass a law, even though it’s prohibited by the Constitution. Do you think if a politician proposed to make slavery legal again that that would be fine? That would be fine. Oh, well, we’ll have to go through the courts, and the courts will just have to say, No, that’s unconstitutional. It violates the 13th or the 14th or the 15th amendment. You should not have passed that pro slavery law. Duh, is that really how it’s supposed to fly? No, there’s going to be civil rights issues. There is going to be incentives. There is going to be ability to get that money. Unfortunately, when it comes to the Second Amendment, they don’t want to respect it. They don’t care. They just keep piling on and costing the taxpayer. But at some point, it’s going to have an impact. At some point, the amount of money they’re putting out and the amount of money it’s going to cost them, they are going to have to back down.

Evan Nappen 21:59

I recently had a case where an individual’s rights were trampled upon by the state of New Jersey. They had guns seized, and the state went over a year on this person’s firearms not being returned to them. It was really outrageous. I did not represent this person through the process. But when they came to me and I saw that it had sat out there for a year and nothing had happened, well, I’ll tell you what, this is one of the rare laws in New Jersey, where they actually lay out that if there’s a wrongful failure to return and it’s based on bad faith, you can actually get attorney’s fees. One of the few areas in Jersey where they actually have this. I sent a letter laying out why we are going to demand attorney’s fees and why Page – 6 – of 7

this should have been taken care of, and it’s outrageous how long it is and the whole bit. I sent that letter out and that same day, that same day, I got a reply back, oh, he can pick up his guns. We’re returning, giving them back. All good, all fine, sorry about that. Boom. That shows you the power. When you actually put some teeth in the law, when you actually have the ability for getting attorney’s fees paid, for getting damages, in states that have that, it’s very effective. Now Jersey only has it in one limited place. But even that has proven to be very worthwhile just to have that threat there.

Evan Nappen 23:42

So, when it comes to passing pro-gun laws, folks, if you are in pro gun states, make sure that the legislators enforce that law with teeth, with financial teeth, with the ability to bring lawsuits, to get paid on the attorney’s fees, to create the incentive, to bring the litigation, to keep these bureaucrats in line, and to keep them in line to do their job in respect to the Second Amendment. Put these fees and penalties into any. If your state has licensing, put it in the licensing. Look, in New Jersey, there is a law, an actual law, on the license that says a Firearm Purchaser ID card and/or Handgun Purchase Permit has to be decided by the chief, yes or no, approved or denied, within 30 days. Now, if any of you are familiar with New Jersey’s laws, that’s a joke. Some folks may live in towns where they actually do it fast. But the norm is to go over the 30 days. Even though the law says 30 days. Do you know why? Because there’s no teeth to that law. Yeah, it says they are supposed to do it in 30 days, but it doesn’t say there’s any punishment if they don’t. If you make the punishment that the license is automatically issued, if you make the punishment that they are responsible to pay attorney’s fees if you got to go to court to force them to do their job, if you put those kinds of things in, it can be effective.

Evan Nappen 25:27

Because in other states where they have, it’s proven effective. In other states, where I have brought issues over a licensing matter, one chief who failed to follow the procedure on the issuance of a carry permit, had to personally pay $5,000. Personally, for the violation. Well, guess what? That problem didn’t occur anymore. This is what we’re talking about. So, as far as Justin’s question, yes, and we need to put more in the laws themselves to allow it. It needs to keep coming under and being put into civil rights litigation to get those fees that can be paid under federal law. This is the way to do it. It does create an important incentive, and it is a way of combating the attacks on our rights.

Evan Nappen 26:27

I have another letter here from Jim who says regarding rendering a firearm inoperable. Jim says, hi, Evan, I’ve seen you speak many times and I listen to every episode. Oh, thank you, Jim. I appreciate that. My question is regarding an inherited prohibited firearm in New Jersey. Is there any way to take possession of such a firearm upon inheriting? I’m assuming the only legal method to own such weapon in New Jersey is to render it inoperable. What exactly does that consists of? Removal of the firing pin? Concrete in barrel? Good grief. Interested to know if it’s possible to own such a weapon for display purposes only. Thank you and keep up the great work, Jim.

Evan Nappen 27:14

Okay, Jim, the key here. If you’re talking about rendering inoperable those words are found in New Jersey’s assault firearm statute. The problem is in New Jersey when Governor Florio got that through, there was a one-year period from May of 90 to 91 where possessors of so-called assault firearms had Page – 7 – of 7

choices. They could either voluntarily surrender the gun, get rid of it and get no compensation. They could register it, but only very few were allowed to be registered. Only four types of guns could even have been registered or rendered inoperable. And if you rendered it inoperable, you had to remove the pin or the bolt or whatever you’re going to remove, and you couldn’t possess that part anymore. Then you had to file paperwork, a specific rendering inoperable form had to be filed. And that was only available for that one year, and it required the paperwork being filed. If that didn’t happen, then it was not deemed properly rendered inoperable, and you could still be prosecuted for unlawful possession of an assault firearm. Even though it was inoperable, if you didn’t do that piece of paper within that timeframe. So, inoperability is not a cure for anything in New Jersey. It doesn’t matter if you have the pin out or anything like that. It doesn’t legally change the enforcement that’ll take place.

Evan Nappen 28:44

As a matter of fact, as I said, there are even cases where individuals had rendered it inoperable. Simply because that piece of paper wasn’t filed, even though they rendered it inoperable during that one year, during the timeframe when you were supposed to render it inoperable, the fact you did not file the document, did not save them. It did not save them. So, the inoperability is not an issue. The thing is it depends here on how the item that’s “prohibited in New Jersey”, the status of it in terms of the inheritance. Because if you had one of the few guns that you could register in New Jersey, which included the AR15, the M1A and the M1 Carbine that the Attorney General declared were “legitimate target shooting firearms.” If within that period of time from May of 90 to 91 paid $50 and registered those guns because they were the only ones you were allowed to register. Then you haven’t officially registered the assault firearm in Jersey. The problem is the statute said that anyone who had a registered assault firearm that gun was uninheritable. The fact that it was registered made it so you could not inherit. You could not leave it to your heirs. Yet interestingly, unregistered assault firearms are inheritable in New Jersey.

Evan Nappen 30:24

Now you might say, well, how can that be if they’re contraband or prohibited? Ah, because if an individual in Jersey got their guns out of state and stored their prohibited guns in Jersey, let’s say in Pennsylvania, and they were unregistered assault firearms, then those would pass to the heirs, even in New Jersey. But they would not be allowed to come back to New Jersey. They would pass to the heirs and the heirs could then dispose of them in the other state where they were kept. Whereas, if it was a registered assault firearm that they stored out of state, it would have to be forfeited to the government under the law. So, that’s how crazy it is. It is going to depend very much, Jim, on what exactly we’re talking about. If we are talking about Jersey’s assault firearm, and it depends on where they are, where they are stored and how they came into possession. Federal law is good on inheritance, but it’s a state law where it gets real crazy. So, be aware and seek advice of counsel if you run into that specific situation. Hey, folks, until next time, this is Evan Nappen reminding you that gun laws don’t protect honest citizens from criminals. They protect criminals from honest citizens. L2AL, folks. Over and out.

Speaker 3 31:48

Gun Lawyer is a CounterThink Media production. The music used in this broadcast was managed by Cosmo Music, New York, New York. Reach us by emailing Evan@gun.lawyer. The information and opinions in this broadcast do not constitute legal advice. Consult a licensed attorney in your state.

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About The Host@media only screen and (max-width:1024px) {.fusion-title.fusion-title-5{margin-top:!important;margin-bottom:20px!important;}}Evan Nappen, Esq.

Known as “America’s Gun Lawyer,” Evan Nappen is above all a tireless defender of justice. Author of eight bestselling books and countless articles on firearms, knives, and weapons history and the law, a certified Firearms Instructor, and avid weapons collector and historian with a vast collection that spans almost five decades — it’s no wonder he’s become the trusted, go-to expert for local, industry and national media outlets.

Regularly called on by radio, television and online news media for his commentary and expertise on breaking news Evan has appeared countless shows including Fox News – Judge Jeanine, CNN – Lou Dobbs, Court TV, Real Talk on WOR, It’s Your Call with Lyn Doyle, Tom Gresham’s Gun Talk, and Cam & Company/NRA News.

As a creative arts consultant, he also lends his weapons law and historical expertise to an elite, discerning cadre of movie and television producers and directors, and novelists.

He also provides expert testimony and consultations for defense attorneys across America.

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