Productive Insights Podcast — Actionable Business Growth Ideas — with Ash Roy

Productive Insights Podcast — Actionable Business Growth Ideas  — with Ash Roy

210. Guy Kawasaki on Entrepreneurship

April 13, 2021

Ash Roy (00:00):
So, Guy, here's my first question, Harold Keables at 'Iolani and Steve jobs were two of your greatest teachers and they had big impact on your life. What did they have in common and how can people listening or watching this conversation find teachers and mentors like that?

Guy Kawasaki (00:20):
What they had in common is that they were both very demanding to the point of being scary and perfectionists. And so my insight is that the people who were the hardest on you, coaches, teachers, mentors, bosses, are probably the people who taught you the most and helped you the most

Ash Roy (00:48):
Welcome back to the Productive Insights Podcast. This is Ash Roy, the host of the Productive Insights Podcast and the founder of Today, I have a very special guest and his name is Guy Kawasaki. He is a chief evangelist at Canva and the creator of the Remarkable People Podcast, which is awesome. He's the executive fellow of the Harvard school of business, UC Berkeley, and an adjunct professor at the University of New South Wales, which is where I happen to do my MBA. So, hi Prof!

Guy Kawasaki (01:20):
You were one of my best students.

Ash Roy (01:22):
Thank you, Guy. That's very kind. He was a chief evangelist of Apple and a trustee of the Wikimedia foundation. He's written "Wise Guy", excellent book, The Art of the Start 2.0, The art of Social Media and 11 other books. Guy has a BA from Stanford university and MBA from the UCLA. And today he is going to talk to us about all things, entrepreneurship and marketing. So welcome to the Productive Insights Podcast, Guy. It's an honor to have you.

Guy Kawasaki (01:51):
It's an honor to be on. Thank you.

Ash Roy (01:53):
Thank you. That's very kind. Guy, I have been diving into your content and you have a body of work and I'd be lying if I said through all of it, because there is so much one thing I want to say, and I mean this from the bottom of my heart, your honesty, your candor, your integrity just comes through in your writing and all your content. So I just want to say, I appreciate that. It means the world to me and thank you for doing everything you've done.

Guy Kawasaki (02:22):
Thank you. You're welcome. And I'm flattered. You think so highly.

Ash Roy (02:26):
Man, I've been following you since the days of old top. I don't even know if they still do that, but I used to, eight years ago when I started. Wow. All right. So guy, here's my first question. Harold Keables at 'Iolani and Steve Jobs were two of your greatest teachers and they had big impact on your life. What do they have in common and how can people listening or watching this conversation find teachers and mentors like that?

Guy Kawasaki (02:56):
What they had in common is that they both very demanding to the point of being scary and perfectionists. And so my insight is that the people who were the hardest on you, coaches, teachers, mentors, bosses, are probably the people who taught you the most and helped you the most.

Ash Roy (03:20):
And that is always the case. I don't

Guy Kawasaki (03:22):
Know about always the case, but I'm sure there are people who can just pound on you with negative results and they have negative motivations. So I'm not saying that every difficult, tough mean-spirited person is good for you. Okay. By any means, I'm just saying that, you know, those two, because they were arguably reporting to a higher kind of goal of denting the universe or teaching me English, teaching me how to write, which is different than doing it for their own self-glory or, you know, their own ego. They drove me the farthest and the fastest and the hardest, there's no question.

Ash Roy (04:05):
They weren't mean-spirited this actually brings us to another interesting point. And that is you've often talked about the importance of having a cause. Now Apple, when they started, they had a cause has a cause. And Canva, as you often say, it's democratizing design and I believe Apple was about democratizing technology. How does somebody listening? Find a cause one obvious thing is it should be greater than oneself. How does one find a cause? And do you believe that Apple still has a cause?

Guy Kawasaki (04:41):
Well, one finds a cause just by being aware, I think, and I think that evangelists are made not born. So when a cause finds you, or when you create something that truly captivates you and you see as good news that can dent the universe. Then, whether you find the cause or the cause finds you is rather unimportant. It's the fact that the two of you have found each other. And so I wish there was a tried and true method to find a cause or create a cause. A lot of it is just being in the right place at the right time.

Ash Roy (05:23):
Steve jobs and Harold Keables drove you really hard. How does one do that as a leader, in a company without being mean-spirited or without being cruel and surely you agree that not all cruel people are great leaders.

Guy Kawasaki (05:38):
To put it mildly, yes.

Ash Roy (05:42):
But some great leaders can appear cruel, but they aren't necessarily being sold. Could you talk to us a bit more about that?

Guy Kawasaki (05:51):
Well, surely so some of it is that is the person equally cruel. Is he or she cruel to everybody? Right? So that's one test. So Harold Keables and Steve jobs were demanding and cruel of everybody - not just me, not just a handful of people, everybody. And I would make the case, they were probably cruel and demanding of themselves. So I think many times when you meet cruel people, they're cruel to everybody except themselves. I could think of some recent politicians in America that, you know, they never thought they did anything wrong, but they were surrounded by people who did everything wrong. Well, okay, well, I wish I had no idea who I was talking about. So, so that's one thing it's, you know, sort of a uniform cruelty is necessary. Another thing is that it should be cruelty and challenging and, you know, et cetera, et cetera, for the greater good to create a great computer, to create a great understanding of English, which is different than to be cruel and demanding in order to prop yourself up. So applying that same test to recent politicians, guess what? It's kinda clear where our fearless leader comes out in that.

Ash Roy (07:25):
I also want to commend you on your bravery to put it bluntly in terms of posting your thoughts on LinkedIn. There's a lot of integrity between what you're doing, what you say. So kudos to you.

Guy Kawasaki (07:39):
Thank you. Thank you.

Ash Roy (07:40):
Speaking of integrity and grit, which is also something I think you have, and you've often said, I may not be the most talented person in the world, and I may not be the most gritty person in the world, but there's not many people who have a combination of both in your conversation with Angela Duckworth on your podcast, the Remarkable People Podcasts. Which, I have to mention, that's a really good podcast, but anyway,

Guy Kawasaki (08:01):
Feel free to do it again.

Ash Roy (08:05):
Conversation with Angela Duckworth. You mentioned that podcasting is one of the most difficult things you've done, but one of the most satisfying things you've done. And clearly I know from experience because we're recording episode number 210 right now, I agree that it takes grit, but I would love to know as a fellow podcaster, what makes it so satisfying for you?

Guy Kawasaki (08:27):
For me? What makes it so satisfying? Is that I think that my listener gains insights into how to be more remarkable with each episode. So whether it's Jane Goodall or Angela Duckworth or Steve Wazniak or Steve Wolf or Kristi Yamaguchi, whoever it is, I think all of these remarkable people have some value they can add to people's lives. And my job is to bring that out. And so I find it very rewarding that rather than me preaching the way that these people from very diverse backgrounds can in fact, help people become more remarkable. And I will tell you one more thing, which may be the most satisfying thing that I've heard as a podcaster is that several of my guests have told me that my interview was the best interview they've ever had in their lives.

Ash Roy (09:31):
That is wonderuful.

Guy Kawasaki (09:32):
That makes my day.

Ash Roy (09:34):
I have the,

Ash Roy (09:34):
The pleasure of saying the same for some of my guests. And one of the high points in my podcast in career was when Seth Godin said to me that I'm a fine correspondent and a good egg. And that just, that meant the world to me because Seth Godin is another person I deeply respect and admire.

Guy Kawasaki (09:51):
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.

Ash Roy (09:54):
You often said that the action happens on the next curve and Steve jobs was great at conceptualizing what is going to happen on the next curve and then realizing it, you know, through his real reality distortion field that he was his engineers often talked about. It does take something special to be able to step beyond what is obvious. But let me give you an example of a thought experiment I often do. I imagine the day when I first discovered an iPod, an Apple iPod, the square ones they used to sell, I don't think they sell them anymore. And at the time I was an Apple naysayer and like everybody else was saying, well, Apple is just overpriced and it's crap and all that stuff. And I remember I was in Singapore and I saw all these MP3 players and they were so cheap. I mean, why is Apple charging so much money for the same functional product?

Ash Roy (10:52):
And I was working at a company called Telstra at the time, which was across the street from the Apple store. And I went in, I touched this little Apple iPod. I fell in love. It was so thin. He was so beautiful. I just fell in love with the thing. And then I remember I was going for a run with it one day and it had this power song feature where you press the thing in the middle, it would play a power song. So you could sprint in the middle of your run. And I just fell in love. And now fast forward, a few years later, I've got approximately 40-50 devices, Apple devices of different sorts in the house.

Guy Kawasaki (11:21):
40 to 50?

Ash Roy (11:22):
Yeah. Well, I have home pods. I have max, I have whole bunch of stuff all over the house. I often imagine Steve jobs discovering this world with these ugly looking MP3 players, these plastic things and going, Whoa, that's just offensive.

Ash Roy (11:39):
It was offensive to his, his Zen values and beliefs.

Guy Kawasaki (11:42):

Ash Roy (11:42):
His aesthetics, and so he came up with this form factor and he came up with the iPod, which then went on to change the world. And I remember he had the thousand songs in your pocket. And at the time people weren't marketing the MP3 players as 56 megabytes of space and 24 megabytes of space or whatever. And job's probably thought to himself, I'm a music level. Why the hell would you tell me how many megabytes of space, tell me how many songs come up with a thousand songs in your pocket?

Guy Kawasaki (12:11):
It's meaningless. Yes, I wasn't at Apple when the iPod actually came out. Now, I don't know if you can say that Steve, you know, designed the iPod, there's at least two stories about how an internal engineer came up with the idea. And then there's another version of a story with Apple bought a company because they couldn't make their own iPod. But regardless of the origin, one of the qualities of genius is knowing what's great and what's crap. And so whether Steve invented it himself or an employee brought it to him or a company brought it to him, he knew what to accept and what to promote and what to run with and what not to run with. So that in and of itself is a form of genius. You need to know what to steal. That's not apparent. I mean, if you think about it, why didn't Sony come up with the iPod? Why didn't Hewlett Packard come up with an iPod. They all had money. They all had the technology. So, you know, you just have to wonder why. Because it's Steve Jobs!

Ash Roy (13:29):
Absolutely. Do you think that was just something innate or is that something we can develop?

Guy Kawasaki (13:34):
It would be kind of pessimistic if I said it was innate, so then all your listeners will say, well, I'll just turn off this podcast because I didn't get the genetic lottery. So, you know, I'll just be a mediocre person, the rest of my life.

Ash Roy (13:47):
Oh, we will have our special gifts.

Guy Kawasaki (13:49):
That's true. It's funny you should mention that. But I'm 66 years old and I truly have come to the conclusion. You know, I used to like anybody in Silicon Valley, I used to have these feelings of superiority over people, right? And I have come to believe that everybody you meet can do something better than you. Now it may be design an iPod. It may be make tamales. It may be surf. It may be sewing a dress. It may be raising mushrooms. I don't know what it is, but I guarantee you, everybody you meet is better at something than you are. And so maybe you're better at something that is more monetizable but don't go out believing that you're superior to everybody in everything because you aren't.

Ash Roy (14:41):
I agree, at least in my experience, life has a way of hitting you with a brick. As someone famous once said,

Guy Kawasaki (14:47):
As Mike Tyson says, "plans are great until the first punch lands", right?

Ash Roy (14:57):
Until you get punched in the face. Exactly. Steve Wozniak on your podcast, talked about his passion for building everyday products and not catering to these big corporates. Steve Wozniak was always and still is not financially obsessed. He's anti-corporate, he is very much about being an everyday guy. All he ever wanted to do was be a great engineer. And that's how he saw himself, but Jobs and Wozniak was so different yet. So complimentary, do you agree that Steve Wozniak also played a critical role in the development of Apple, which is sadly often overlooked?

Guy Kawasaki (15:32):
Oh yeah. At the start of Apple. And I think at every company, there are only two functions that matter. Somebody has to make it and somebody has to sell it. So yeah, if, if there's nobody there to sell it, it doesn't matter what you can make. And if there's nobody there who can make something, then you have nothing to sell. So I would give Steve Wozniak a great deal of credit. I mean, without him, Apple would not exist. What would Steve jobs sell without that? So I think Steve Wazniak is maybe the purest form of engineering in Silicon Valley.

Ash Roy (16:11):
It's amazing what he has done for Apple and his purity of heart, and his purity of purpose is very clear whenever you listen to him. Guy, you often say, at the start of your career, you were the evangelist of Apple. And that was a big thing. And now you're ending your career with Canva and everything else in between was flailing. I respectfully disagree. I think you've done some amazing stuff in the interim, all talk for example, the books that you've written, how have you achieved so much and being so prolific, particularly given your beginnings. I mean, you started in a lower income home.

Guy Kawasaki (16:54):

Ash Roy (16:54):
I remember you're talking about being driven home in a fancy car by your friend's mom. And you say that it doesn't matter where motivation comes from. What matters is that you are motivated. Can you tell our listeners?

Guy Kawasaki (17:06):
So I come from a lower middle-class family in Hawaii, and now we were not, you know, dirt, poor can't afford to eat and have no clothes and no books, but we definitely were not rich. And I have to tell you, I didn't know. I was poor until I went to the mainland because I was just, you know, happy. I mean, you know, if you don't know, you don't know. Funny story. I have like four little stories here. So I was hijacked of my, I don't know, allowance or lunch money on a public transportation bus twice in school. And then as you say, someone gave me a ride, a family gave me a ride in his Porsche 911, and then my classmate's mom, let me drive her home one night in her Ferrari Daytona. Many people have this. You asked them, well, what motivates you?

Guy Kawasaki (18:00):
They say, well, I want it to end poverty. I wanted to reduce the digital divide. I wanted to end the climate change. I want to change the world. And to be completely honest, I didn't have lofty goals like that. I didn't want to change the world. I just want it to change the car. And so my conclusion from that is that, if you want to dent the universe and change the world and end poverty and the digital divide and climate change, you know, hallelujah, God bless you. But my goals weren't that sacred. And yet, if you look back, why does it matter what motivated me? I am what I am. So it's not what motivates you it's that you are motivated somehow. I can't tell you that. When I see a movie like crazy rich Asians, or I see a series like bling empire, I'm saying, Oh God, you know, go, go, go get it.

Guy Kawasaki (18:58):
I can't tell you that frame of mind, but you know, what can I say? When I was an undergrad at Stanford, there used to be this thing called Parents' weekend, which is when the parents visited. And many of the families from California, their parents drove to Stanford. And so when the parents were there, they all take you out to dinner and you go out, you know, hang out with your roommates, families, and all that. And so, during Parents' Weekends, my friends in the dorm, their parents used to show up and like one in particular, he drove a Ferrari and I saw this guy. He was a cardiologist and he drove a Ferrari. You know, I used to look at parents and him and I said, God, you know, Guy, that is why you're at Stanford. That's why you're studying hard. And that's why you're going to work hard because someday you're going to buy a Ferrari.

Guy Kawasaki (19:47):
Now, fast forward, you know, I have owned Porsches and stuff, but now just to give you full circle here. So now, I go to Stanford. This is when Stanford was still in person. So I drive around Stanford because it's near my house. And you know, I see kids playing basketball, outdoors, and walking around and I look at them and I say, Oh man, I wish I was there. You know, my biggest problem is the midterm. You're right. That's your biggest problem, your midterms. So what I would give to be back in college and I can guarantee you, they're probably looking at me saying what I would give to drive a Porsche like that guy, you know. The grass isn't always greener.

Ash Roy (20:32):
It comes back to what you said earlier. Isn't it? Like you said, when you were young, you didn't know you were poor because it's all relative. I think an important question to ask is what is poverty? Because you could have millions of dollars and be emotionally and spiritually bereft. As to me that is, are we going back to politics again? No, that was not my intention, but I see exactly with my comment.

Guy Kawasaki (21:02):
Okay. Just wondering you open the door, you open the door and I drove right through it.

Ash Roy (21:10):
Fair enough, man. This is a fun conversation. When you spoke to Tim Ferris, you mentioned to him that you sometimes think that podcasting may be more powerful than writing a book. And Tim talked about the half-life of a book being longer and a book being potentially stickier than a podcast, which can possibly be a bit more fleeting. Although I know you can go back and listen to the podcast. So my question to you is being an author of 15 books, do you agree with that? And are you going to write another book? Because I would like to read it.

Guy Kawasaki (21:43):
I have said 14 times that this is the last book I'll ever write. I don't anticipate writing another book and Tim Ferris aside, here's my take on it. So with a book, it takes you about a year to write, and then it takes 6 to 12 months for a publisher to get it out. So it really is a year and a half to two year project. You get three payments, one at six signature of the contract, one, a delivery of the manuscript and one at when the book ships and those three payments for most authors are the first and last payments they will ever receive because most books don't earn back their advances. So now you've completed this book and six to 12 months later, the book is out and it's probably wrong on the day that you release it. Wrong at several levels.

Guy Kawasaki (22:41):
One is mistakes have been filed after it was too late. Then also things have changed, right? So can you imagine take the worst case? So you wrote a book about how to start a tech startup. Okay. And it was going to come out in early 2020. There's a chapter in the book about how to network. So how to go to conferences, how to have breakfast with your venture capitalists, how to connect at cocktail parties, et cetera, et cetera. And then the pandemic happens and there are no conferences. There are no parties. There are no meetings. There are no networking events. You can't play golf. You can't even go shopping. So your book is instantly irrelevant. Meanwhile, in that same book, there is not one word about how to pitch using zoom because every pitch was in person. So now what? Are you going to revise your book in a year and a half when it's too late.

Guy Kawasaki (23:46):
So my take on podcasting is I can change topic every week. And so when the pandemic hit, I interviewed the former surgeon general of the United States, Vivek Murthy, who worked for Barack Obama. Right. I interviewed the managing director of the international vaccine Institute. I interviewed an epidemiologist at UCLA. All about the pandemic. Yeah. Yeah. And rewind within weeks of when their topic was relevant, that could not have happened in a book. And then with the podcast, you can monetize a podcast every week. So you could, you know, you could get paid every week for as long as you do your podcast, which is very different than getting three checks. And that's it. Now I don't want to paint a picture that podcasting is necessarily easier than writing a book. It's just different. There are as many challenges doing a podcast. As there are writing a book,

Ash Roy (24:48):
I've been told to write a book a few times, but I've been, I must confess fearful of writing one because I once heard somebody say everyone has a book in them. And in some cases it's best that it stays there.

Guy Kawasaki (25:02):
Well, I will tell you that, you know, you have to apply the test of pretend it's pre-pandemic, that, you know, you walk into a bookstore and there's 25,000 titles in the bookstore and 24,000 are sitting on shelves. So you can see one inch of their spine and a thousand are out but why is anybody going to find your book and read it? Right? I mean, that's the test. And it's not because you want to increase your brand awareness. You want to increase your speaking. You want to increase your consulting. People don't go into a bookstore saying, how can I help Ash Roy and Guy Kawasaki get more money? You know, that's not topical for them. So you have to answer the question. Why the hell are you going to seek out your book? And if you can't answer that question, don't write a book.

Ash Roy (25:50):
Yeah. As you say, if you have something to say, then write a book, but don't write a book if you don't have something to say.

Guy Kawasaki (25:58):
Well, you know, Tim Ferriss may be able to get million dollar advances and, you know, live off this one check. So hallelujah, listen more power to them. But I think a podcast is faster. I think it's more efficient, more topical. I think it's more monetizable because you can always change sponsor. You can change advertiser. And as you grow, you can charge more, you know, with the book, as it gets more popular. Yes. You get more royalty, but it's not like you can say, Okay, my book was $19.95 when it was not proven and now it's $4995 because it is proven. It's going to be $19.95 forever and then when the paperback comes out, it's going to be $9.95. So it's always a volume game. Maybe, I can thread the needle because after let's say I do two years of Remarkable People Podcasting, arguably, I am very well qualified to write a book, how to be remarkable.

Ash Roy (26:59):
Yeah. Well, I don't think you need to wait that long. I think you're already qualified.

Guy Kawasaki (27:06):
So, so maybe I can thread the needle and do both, but until then, I'll just podcast.

Ash Roy (27:12):
I'll tell you what there have been some remarkable people on your podcast. Jane Goodall is a remarkable person. Angela Duckworth is a remarkable person. And something that you've done that I think is remarkable. And I want to acknowledge that is in clubhouse, which is this app. If you're listening, it's this app that is very addictive, proceed with caution.

Guy Kawasaki (27:33):
I know what you're gonna say.

Ash Roy (27:35):
Well, you know, I just think that's wonderful because look, I'm not opening another political door for you to walk through, but I just think that well, too many men in positions of power, and I think we need more of a balance. And I really appreciate you exclusively bringing women up to the speaker stage in that app. So to speak, because I think for too long, women have not been given an equal voice and exactly, I really respect and appreciate that.

Guy Kawasaki (28:05):
Just so people understand what the hell we're talking about. So clubhouse is this quote unquote social audio app. It's kind of like listening to a talk show. It's kind of like a podcast and it's kind of like a conference. And so you can make rooms, which is, think of a room as a conference. And so when I make a room, I always call it, ask me anything, because I want people to be able to ask me anything, my advice on anything. And I have one stipulation, which is in clubhouse, you as the creator of the room, you grant the permission to speak to people when they ask for it. It's kind of like a town hall in a sense, right? So when Joe Biden does a town hall, somebody picks who asked the question, it's not everybody raising their hand and screaming out the question.

Guy Kawasaki (28:54):
And so if you think of that as an equivalent of a town hall and I am the person who's town hall, it is, I only call on women to ask questions, because I think as you say that women's voices have been stifled for too long. And now in my little speck of the universe, I am changing the rules. So that only women have the mic and the floor and the podium and only women's voices will be heard. And if you're a man and you can't deal with it, don't listen to my clubhouse. Yeah. Go someplace else because, you know, welcome to what women have been dealing with for hundreds of years. And if you can, with it for an hour,

Ash Roy (29:44):
I had Rand Fishkin, the founder of the Moss. Yeah. He was on my podcast and he said to me, this is years ago, you need to have more women on your podcast. And I was like, yes, I do. Where are they? Because it was not easy at the time. This is a while ago. I didn't come across any women founders. So he gave me a list of six people, and then I started discovering more and more women on the podcast. So I really appreciate that.

Guy Kawasaki (30:08):
I haven't done it lately, but I'm roughly 50% women on my podcast. It's definitely not 60-40 or 70-30 or 90-10. It could be interesting if you look at someone like Guy Ross with how I did this or at an extreme Joe Rogan or even Terry Gross, it would be interesting to see what percentage are women on their podcasts? I don't know the answer. I'd be very interested once you have an intern do that for you.

Ash Roy (30:41):
I can't help but say this. I shouldn't go down the political path but I've got to say it the way in which the prime minister of New Zealand has handled the whole coronavirus and in fairness to the prime minister of Australia, they've handled it pretty well as well. But yeah, the prime minister of New Zealand has been amazing. And I think we need more people like that in positions of power. We need less testosterone and a little bit more pause before we just go rushing into just,

Guy Kawasaki (31:10):
Yeah, we need more ovaries and less testicles.

Ash Roy (31:14):
Right? Correct. Yes.

Guy Kawasaki (31:18):
I mean, if you think about it, men have been given the opportunity to run the world for hundreds of years and they pretty much screwed it up. So let's try something different. Only a fool, keep doing the same thing, expecting a different result. So, what's the downside. I mean, Angela Merkel, Jacinda, why not?

Ash Roy (31:37):
Absolutely. Absolutely.

Guy Kawasaki (31:41):
2024 baby. You know, what would be really fascinating is like Kamala Harris and Stacy Abrams or Camila Harris and even the Rock I would vote for that Kamala Harris and the rock. Oh my God. That would be like so fun. I mean, if Ronald Reagan and Donald Trump can be president the rock and be vice vice-president certainly in president too. Why not?

Ash Roy (32:04):
But you know, I got to say Biden and Obama, haven't been really boorish. I think they are quite good as leaders wouldn't you agree?

Guy Kawasaki (32:14):
Absolutely. But to be fair, how hard could it be to look like a good leader today,

Ash Roy (32:21):
Right? I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna let that go. So in, in Australia again, called cricket and they say, I'm going to let that go through the keeper. So there's a wicket keeper who stands behind the wickets and catches the balls. I'm going to say, I'm going to live through the keeper. Okay. I want to be respectful of your time. And you have been so generous. I don't want to keep you any longer. I could talk to you for hours, man.

Guy Kawasaki (32:47):
I don't have hours of wisdom. So, you know, asked me one last question and then I'll get back to my family.

Ash Roy (32:53):
How can people find out more about you and how can people access the Remarkable People Podcast?

Guy Kawasaki (33:00):
Well, the second one is easy. You go to What a concept, huh? How hard is that? So Accessing me, my email is and only I read the email. Well, it's not true. Somebody else has the password, but if you get an answer from, it's me for better or for worse. So yeah, those are two ways.

Guy Kawasaki (33:28):
You can follow me on social media, but I'm telling you I'm highly political. I'm very liberal. If you follow me on social media, understand that I'm a liberal, I believe in vaccination, I believe in equal rights for women, I believe in immigration and the beauty of immigration. Making America Great Again. I believe that climate change is a threat that could end the world. I believe that the democracy in America was severely severely threatened in the last five years. I believe that Joe Biden got more votes and he won the election. So if you disagree with all of that, don't follow me on social media 'cause you ain't going to change my mind. I also understand I'm not going to change your mind. It's okay.

Ash Roy (34:16):
Well thank you for sharing your thoughts and being so honest.

Guy Kawasaki (34:21):
Alrighty, take care. Sending my best. Don't have too much Vegemite!